Groups | Search | Server Info | Login | Register
Groups > comp.lang.forth > #23106
| From | Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? |
| Date | 2013-05-31 23:21 +0200 |
| Organization | 1&1 Internet AG |
| Message-ID | <kob481$550$1@online.de> (permalink) |
| References | (12 earlier) <7xd2s8edej.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <rtmdnQTj4Kmy6DrMnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@supernews.com> <7x61y0qtdj.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ko8jhj$3v8$1@online.de> <7x61xzpoal.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> |
Paul Rubin wrote: > Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes: >> It's not about the 1980.... Today, it's a lot easier, as many Forth >> concepts had been adopted some way or another by other languages. > > I'd be interested in examples (I'm sure there are some). It seems to me > that the language that's really managed a sneaky takeover is Lisp. The > Lisp influence on Python, Ruby, Javascript, and even Java is huge. I > think Forth-originated development methods (at least as I perceive them > from "Thinking Forth") have influenced current "agile" processes, > but in ways that are mostly language-independent. No, the "agile" process does not work well for languages with separate compilation. It is defined for those, too, but as it breaks the flow of the programmer, programmers actually prefer interactive languages. The source of that might actually be Lisp rather than Forth, but Lisp was a big inspiration for Chuck Moore, who learned Lisp when he was at MIT. From John McCarthy himself. >> The networked Forth my friend did at the Garching accelerator had an >> ARCNET network, networking 120 CPUs, and it didn't send files around. > > I'm not sure what the point of that story is. Arcnet appears to have > been an ethernet-like LAN. The point of the https stuff in the thing I > worked on was to send files over the worldwide internet. Ok, but in the 1980s, there was no worldwide internet. >> It was sort-of a distributed version control system. >> Yes, you can have that with Linux today. But with Forth, you could have >> that in the 1980s. > > Cool, but not really relevant ot the problem at hand. Ok, so whenever there is something cool, you dismiss it, because your problem at hand is slightly different? The Garching accellerator didn't need some worldwide internet, so your https is cool, but not relevant *for that project*. >> Ok, the Garching accelerator got a real GUI in the early 90s. It was a >> Windows GUI, and since MINOS hasn't been written by then, > > Windows ran on a PC and if I'm not mistaken MINOS ran on an Atari ST > which was comparable to a PC, fairly expensive devices compared to > embedded gadgets. No MINOS on the Atari ST; it started a bit later. > The thing I described is roughly comparable to a > $100-ish Android tablet and could possibly be mistaken for one (it has a > tablet-like touch screen, though it has some special hardware > interfaces). Its cost will probably be comparable once quantity goes > up. It will be profitable at that level. A 1980's PC or ST cost maybe > 10x more, counting inflation, and wouldn't be feasible for this product. ??? Inflation??? What inflation??? If you didn't notice: We have a high rate of *deflation* in electronics. If you were to make a 1980s PC or ST in quantities, the whole thing could be a SoC at a $1 pricepoint or so. Ok, you need some keyboard, mouse, monitor (pretty low res), so maybe $20 for everything together. A $100-ish Android tablet, something like the cheap Chinese tablet I used for the LinuxTag demo, has a GHz CPU, a gigabyte RAM, 16G flash, cameras, WLAN, touch screen... >>> because of the ease of debugging, >> The ease of debugging is one of the best things in Forth. > > Not in my experience, and I think gforth is probably better about > it than typical embedded Forths are. Yes, but maybe you just haven't found your way into Forth debugging. If I debug outside the Forth world, it's that "back to nature" feeling. Especially in the C world, it feels like walking knee-deep through mud with chains on my ankles. >> The string library doesn't contain a GC, though, which is not a >> problem, because the strings in the GUI library are all attached to >> some object, which, when freed, will free the corresponding strings, >> too. > > 1. What about strings used in the non-GUI parts of the program? Usually much simpler. > 2. It sounds like you're describing manually freeing the objects, > again doing work manually that a GC could do for you. Yes. Fortunately, all GUI elements are tied together, so freeing them when they are no longer needed is trivial. >> Sure. In other words: You wrote a lot of bloat, which would have >> killed the project in the 1980s. > > Nah, the bloat is in the OS, system utilities, Python interpreter, > Python libraries, other downloaded libraries, etc., all of which were > written by other people and not be me. But the bloat contains enough > useful functionality that the amount of code I personally had to write > was fairly small. There was something like 100MB of code in the box, > fairly lightweight for a Linux distro but ridiculous for a traditional > embedded gadget. If the whole thing was in Forth, it would have been > orders of magnitude smaller, but I would have had to write a lot more > code myself, instead of using the built-in stuff from the Linux and > Pythond distros. So you were lucky that the things did fit together. I don't have such luck with Android. E.g. take the hardware accellerated video player: It takes MPEG transport stream. The video recorder outputs MPEG4. The container format that I would want to use is Matroska. The libraries I tested (libavformat) does not create correct MTS. I'm to lazy to fix it, I rather write the thing myself. >> This sort of stuff is not about imagination, it is about experience. The >> traditional Forth multitasker in the 80s was cooperative, which was >> perfectly ok, since there was only one CPU core anyways. > > Oh come on, multicore is a fairly new situation, and preemptive OS's > have been around since before Forth. Cooperative systems keep morphing > into preemptive ones, though I defer to others to explain the reasons. I don't need explanations. I've added pthread support to Gforth last year, and a message/event mechanism, which made it very easy to synchronize processes without having to think a lot. The message itself is delivered atomically. >> I remember a "crash never" talk from Nick Nelson, and he had a long list >> of >> how to make Forth crash-proof. Silently restarting applications in the >> background was one of them. So, yes, we know that, and yes, we do that, >> too. > > How do you do that with a cooperative multitasker when a process locks > up? What does it even mean for a process to crash? Others have commented about watchdogs, but actually, the algorithm to restart a crashed application is to ask it, get a response in time, and if it doesn't respond in time, you kick the restart (reset button in hardware, kill+exec in software). Crash or hang is irrelevant here. >> The way to network two Forth boxes together (in a trusted environment) >> is to send Forth code over the network. JSON on steroids, for you, >> because you don't just have data, but also code. > > More programs to debug? You really should try it. It's not more programs to debug. It's that the message contains what it wants to do with its data. > Nah, JSON was simpler for this. > >> Our LinuxTag demo robot... The communication protocol was to compile >> the moves into a b16 program, and write that program into memory, and >> then execute it. > > That sounds cool, how long did it take you to debug it? If more than > 5 minutes, JSON might have been easier on systems that handle it easily. The communication itself worked right first time, I was quite surprised that it went so well. The debugging effort went more into finguring out what commands I actually want to send in which order, and into a timer problem - the timer wasn't made for arbitrary waiting in between, so it needed kicking to keep going. >> The Forth instruction set. Use it, it is more powerful than XML. >> Because it allows nested definitions, loops, conditional branches, >> calculations, and so on. > > How do you deal with nested dictionaries? Use words for dictionaries? We have that in Forth. > Strings, hash tables, memory allocation, etc.? Use string words, hash tables, memory allocations. I have that in my toolbox. Even regexps. Though I rarely need them. The point in Python is that everything you do ends up in hashes of strings that get regexp- processed. In Forth, your program often ends up in arrays of integers. But it does the same thing. > Plus as mentioned, those loops, branches, etc. are > more code to debug. Oh, come on. If I were to send something like "place 10 balls in a row", I have two choices: Use the data approach and execute the loop in the sender, writing 10 locations for the balls, or use the code approach, and execute the loop in the receiver, generating the 10 locations on the fly. Same with branches. The overall compexity stays exactly the same, just that when you can send loops, you save the data. And the expressiveness is higher when you can send if-statements, because the if-statement can react on a condition only known by the receiver. >> As Elizabeth already told you, it is awesome to write a Forth one-liner, >> that is obviously right, and works immediately. > > Here's a Haskell one-liner to tell if a number is prime: > > isPrime n = null [k | k <- takeWhile (\a->a*a<=n) (2:[3,5..]), n`mod`k == > 0] As Albert already had a nice one-liner, the point here is already moot. >>> instead of hours iteratively writing and debugging a page full of C >>> code. The schedule was able to be incredibly compressed due to Python. >> >> No doubt. I think you just don't get Forth, and you should do something >> which we suggest to Gavino all the time: Dive in and try it. > > Meh, I wouldn't say I'm proficient with Forth but I'm not totally > without experience. I think to really be proficient would require > dealing with an OOP library, and mucking around inside large existing > Forth programs, of which there aren't very many. This is something I > can't really pursue right now (other commitments), though I did buy some > hardware (TI Launchpads) to use for the purpose one of these days. On the launchpads, you would rather write small programs. But in any case, writing small programs is the right way to go. Small programs that solve problems which are perceived "complex". > I'd be interested in seeing Forth development in action, e.g. on video. > Sam Falvo has some on Youtube that are rather illegible and there are a > few others that are more at the ": square dup * ;" level. For Haskell I > found it really informative to just watch other people code, so I keep > wanting to see how Forthers do it. Quite a number of visitors of our LinuxTag booth found that interesting, as well, since I wasn't ready with my program (the new hardware for the pick&place robot came together right on LinuxTag, as our hardware guru - hardware means metal, not silicon - had the best ideas just a week before, and that needed tweaking as well ;-). > Here is an exercise I might try: using a clock, implement Forth > solutions for the first ten Euler problems (they are very easy; the > later ones get harder). I did two or three of them in a few minutes > each, but some of the others looked like they would take me a while. > None should take more than a minute in Haskell. If you want to try that > yourself in Forth, I'd be interested in the result. Haskell has the dedicated advantage on Euler that Haskell is executing mathematical notations. You don't see that many "pure math" problems in reality. >> Forth is not something you can comprehend by just looking at it. Yes, >> it is all low- level at the first glance. You miss the interactivity, >> and you also miss the fact that data is code. > > I'm used to this from Lisp, where it's a lot easier. No, in Lisp, code is data. That's something slightly, but still substantially different. Lisp has a lot of cute things, but it isn't just a Forth with parameters in reverse. >> Forthers have been done that for decades. We usually have a tailored >> set of words for our "data", which actually is source code, and which >> is interpreted by running it through the Forth interpreter. Or >> compiled, if you like to. > > There's a part missing, which is if you want to send the equivalent of a > JSON blob, you can encode it as Forth words, ok fine. But at the other > end it gets turned back into data, which since it contains strings and > lookup tables, requires memory management. So already there's a chunk > of work needing doing, that GC'd languages handle for you automatically. I'm not convinced. The string and hash table programs I wrote don't need GC-style memory management, as they have an "overwrite" semantics. If you store another string in the same position of the lookup table, the "store" operation frees the old one for you, and allocates the new one. GC? What for? It works fine without. Same with strings: They tend to end up somewhere in a named variable, anyways, so I just keep them there, and have operations to add/insert stuff. > Currently I'm comfortable with the idea of Forth programs that (like > most embedded code) use some fixed static memory, that use data objects > that mostly fit in single cells, etc. Using dynamic memory (especially > without GC) makes it much more complicated. I don't think so. I know that many people claim that GC vs. non-GC is often a factor 10 in code, but I don't see that in my code. The string library with its named variables works rather well, and you don't have random objects flowing around where you don't know how many references they have. That's not Forth style, that would be Lisp style. If you want to do it the Lisp way, a GC is necessary. In Forth, you tend to sidestep all "hard" problems. > Anyway, the annual ICFP language battle is coming up (August 8 to 11): > > https://research.microsoft.com/en-us/events/icfpcontest2013/ > > A successful Forth entry would attract some attention to Forth, just > sayin'. I've already got my successful Forth entry 11 years ago, rank 10 of 168 (and IIRC, I was the only single-person entry in the top-ten): http://bernd-paysan.de/icfp.html I tried again 2003, but it was even more difficult to take the weekend off (social activities like the birthday of my father or getting a 70kg flower pot into the fourth floor of my sister...), so I didn't score very well. But at least the program found solutions. http://bernd-paysan.de/icfp2003.html I haven't found any time at all for participating later. It's a lot easier to spend time programming on a weekend like this one: tons of rain expected. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://bernd-paysan.de/
Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-26 10:45 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-26 12:47 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-26 14:07 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2013-05-26 13:05 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-26 14:09 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2013-05-26 20:37 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-27 05:21 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2013-05-27 08:05 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-05-27 17:45 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-27 08:58 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-27 15:57 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-05-27 18:00 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2013-05-27 09:54 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-27 12:19 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2013-05-27 10:55 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 14:26 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2013-05-27 12:19 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-27 15:22 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 17:49 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-27 15:00 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 18:08 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-27 12:52 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? oh2aun@gmail.com - 2013-05-27 21:36 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-28 00:46 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 10:42 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-28 05:11 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 10:40 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-28 10:28 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-28 15:30 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-28 10:48 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-28 09:30 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 19:02 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-28 16:33 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-28 11:51 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-05-28 19:45 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-29 03:41 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-28 23:57 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 12:37 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-29 16:28 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-29 16:08 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@invalid.com> - 2013-05-29 19:31 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-29 19:42 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-29 12:55 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-29 18:06 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@invalid.com> - 2013-05-29 22:13 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 14:35 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-05-29 21:34 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@invalid.com> - 2013-05-30 08:31 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-30 16:45 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-05-30 17:07 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-31 22:01 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-01 23:26 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-03 01:42 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-02 18:26 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-03 21:35 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-04 21:51 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 03:45 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-05 22:25 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:17 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:25 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-06 20:41 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 08:26 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Jecel <jecel@merlintec.com> - 2013-06-07 15:49 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 21:43 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 01:15 +1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-08 22:20 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-09 08:33 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-09 08:17 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-07 15:07 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-07 00:59 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 01:11 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-07 09:48 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-07 08:25 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-11 15:33 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 08:28 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-08 00:46 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 21:58 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-09 00:49 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-08 22:24 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 12:08 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-27 09:40 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-27 13:13 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-05-27 17:18 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-27 22:24 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-27 22:59 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-29 00:01 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-29 00:12 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-05-29 01:46 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 12:54 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-29 11:05 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 15:36 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-30 00:07 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-30 00:43 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-30 01:22 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-30 07:49 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-30 07:43 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-30 10:50 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-30 10:18 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-30 08:08 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 00:03 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-30 21:21 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 11:09 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-31 08:28 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 16:03 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-02 00:05 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-03 21:21 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-31 00:37 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 01:14 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-05-31 09:50 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 09:35 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-31 11:47 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 10:09 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-31 12:12 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 10:22 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-31 10:25 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 12:11 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-01 16:12 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 21:43 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-31 06:41 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-31 12:03 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 10:01 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-31 12:06 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-31 00:23 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 01:05 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-31 11:23 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 11:15 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-05-31 18:37 +0100
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 10:43 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-31 23:21 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-05-31 15:07 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-01 08:55 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 00:41 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-01 13:52 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-03 16:07 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-03 07:56 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-03 11:20 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 12:30 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-04 21:47 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-05 00:58 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:09 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-05 15:50 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 22:06 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 15:26 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-12 16:41 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-12 16:46 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-13 22:44 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-13 20:54 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-14 03:03 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the 'best' processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-14 14:21 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 16:06 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-01 02:20 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-01 17:32 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-01 19:26 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-02 01:13 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 00:39 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-01 18:05 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-02 00:45 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-02 08:34 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-03 01:57 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-03 19:37 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-03 17:37 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 08:03 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-03 21:22 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 01:18 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-04 08:41 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 10:46 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-04 05:43 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-04 08:49 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-05 00:48 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-31 09:27 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-31 11:27 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-31 06:16 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-31 11:36 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-31 09:52 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-31 12:10 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-05-31 10:30 -1000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-01 00:06 +0200
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 10:07 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 16:01 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-30 13:20 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-30 09:32 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-30 09:30 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-05-31 09:38 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-01 01:40 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 22:50 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-30 13:11 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-30 13:08 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 16:24 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 10:49 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 10:54 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-28 15:27 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-28 09:31 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 19:08 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-29 03:51 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 13:04 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Pavel Klinkovsky <pavel.klinkovsky@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 00:12 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 13:05 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-28 09:32 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 19:05 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-29 00:16 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-29 00:22 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-29 01:23 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-05-29 09:35 +0000
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-29 05:37 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-05-29 04:53 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-29 08:39 -0500
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 15:25 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-01 23:05 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 10:57 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 15:16 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 13:15 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? daveyrotten <danw8804@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 09:21 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 19:10 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? daveyrotten <danw8804@gmail.com> - 2013-05-28 18:40 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-28 19:33 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? daveyrotten <danw8804@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 04:31 -0700
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-05-29 16:12 -0400
Re: OT (slightly) What is the "best" processor for a new project? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-06-11 16:29 -0700
csiph-web