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Re: On the importance of standards

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: On the importance of standards
Date	2013-06-09 17:09 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kp2ql9$c8s$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <almarsoft.7049999493143330677@news.eternal-september.org> <kp2j4a$ua8$1@dont-email.me> <7xsj0r3x2h.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <kp2lft$d56$1@dont-email.me> <7xwqq3qc2b.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

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On 6/9/2013 4:11 PM, Paul Rubin wrote:
> rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>  writes:
>> how do you know you need lower power or faster processing or anything
>> else without the context of an app?  How much power does a soft core
>> MISC use? ...  A hard core is stuck at some power level.
>
> I thought a main feature of the GA design was that it uses almost no
> power when idle (blocked on a port read, e.g.).  If there's not enough
> workload to keep it busy, it can stay shut off most of the time.

It depends on the task as to whether it can be off or not.  Being async 
it doesn't do timing for crap.  You have to have a good plan to make use 
of its features, this stuff isn't automatic.  Consider the Forth 
interpreter they implemented that keeps several cores busy all the time 
waiting for you to type something...  lol

>> BTW, how is using MISC cores for UARTs better than using LUTs?  I'm
>> not trying to say you are wrong, I'm asking you to explain, please.
>
> Well for UART's the comparison was Misc vs. hard cell, rather than Misc
> vs LUTs.  And the Misc probably takes more area than the hard cell, but
> gives more flexibility about data encoding, flow control, etc.

Ok, so UART MISC soft vs UART MISC hard vs UART LUT soft vs UART hard. 
All have advantages and disadvantages.  Why is one inherently better?

>> After all, I consider the GA144 to be a processor version of an FPGA,
>> a FPPA if you will.  I don't really think of it as a processor or MCU
>> like many try to.
>
> In that analogy, an F18 is sort of a super-LUT.  There are 144 of them
> on a relatively big die, at 180nm.  At 28nm maybe that translates to
> 1000 or so of them.  That compares maybe 100k LUTs in an FPGA of similar
> size and process if I'm not mistaken.  So one F18 uses as much silicon
> as 100 LUT's, give or take some small factor.  So how many LUTs does it
> take to implement an F18 in Verilog?  Idk but I'd guess in the
> thousands.

Yes, the F18 is a bit of a super LUT, not really the same as a LUT but 
the real issue is that it is a crappy MCU core.  The cores have nearly 
no memory, the chip has nearly no inherent I/O and there is no built in 
timing capability that is easy to use.  It is a raw resource similar to 
an FPGA, waiting for someone to figure out how to make use of it all.  A 
reasonably large array of fast, low power cores to do small pieces of a 
problem.  Don't think of them as precious like most CPU coders are used 
to.  They are small, cheap and can be used to implement very small tasks.

I don't really care much about how many LUTs it takes to implement an 
F18.  I would not expect to do that.  I guess it is more like a few 
hundred maybe a couple of thousand.  The F18 is pretty small.  More 
important is how many LUTs does it take to do the task you would 
otherwise code on the F18?

-- 

Rick

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On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 22:42 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 23:59 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:16 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:51 +1000
        Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-11 22:03 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-11 22:32 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-12 13:06 -0700
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 22:34 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-14 19:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 19:02 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 22:08 +1000
          Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 23:28 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-13 07:41 -0700
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 19:06 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 10:10 -0700
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 19:19 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-13 12:33 -0500
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 19:28 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-13 07:55 -1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 12:35 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-13 23:18 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 19:41 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 19:37 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 12:00 -0700
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 21:41 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-14 19:16 -0400
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 20:33 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-03 21:32 -1000
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 01:33 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 01:36 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-04 10:14 +0000
      Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 05:51 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-04 05:46 -0500
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:13 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:47 -0400
      Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:29 -0500
        Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 04:26 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 12:03 +0000
  Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:00 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 13:20 +0000
      Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:33 -0700
        Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 13:40 +0000
          Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 07:42 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 18:02 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 09:07 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 19:16 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 14:27 -0400
                TRAVERSE-WORDLIST (was Re: On the importance of standards) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 15:55 -0700
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-14 13:39 +0200
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-14 09:06 -0700
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 17:05 +0000
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-17 21:29 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-04 13:51 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-05 01:24 +0200
      Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 09:25 +0000
        Re: On the importance of standards m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-05 04:31 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 05:41 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:16 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 12:41 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 12:53 +0000
            Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:20 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-06 00:06 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 15:32 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-06 17:09 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 22:44 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-06-07 10:16 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:31 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-08 00:58 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 22:02 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-09 00:55 +0200
                C interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-11 15:41 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:45 +0200
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 08:05 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-12 14:38 +0000
                Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-12 20:15 +0200
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-14 22:52 -0500
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 13:27 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 12:51 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-14 22:47 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:44 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-17 12:46 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-18 07:23 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-18 04:06 -0500
                Re: C interface m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-18 03:51 -0700
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-18 16:10 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-18 13:24 -0500
          Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-05 15:35 +0000
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 17:37 +0000
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:28 +0200
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 15:23 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 14:33 +0200
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:32 +0200
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 15:05 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-14 21:42 +0200
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:53 +0000
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-06-05 16:01 -0400
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of  standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 14:55 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of  standards) Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-06-14 15:28 -0400
        Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:14 +0200
      Re: On the importance of standards glidedog@gmail.com - 2013-06-23 02:55 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 15:25 -0500
  Re: On the importance of standards "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-04 17:48 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-04 15:06 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-04 15:40 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-05 07:30 +0200
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 04:33 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-06-05 02:09 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 19:32 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 00:06 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 22:50 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-04 19:02 -1000
      Re: On the importance of standards Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-06-05 23:16 +0000
        Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 13:43 -1000
          Re: On the importance of standards "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-06 11:14 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 15:27 -1000
              Re: On the importance of standards "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-06 15:28 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-05 00:03 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:15 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-06 14:45 -1000
      Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:24 -0700
        Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:38 -0500
          Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 14:39 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 00:57 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 10:44 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 06:11 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 14:47 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 00:03 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 15:00 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 12:26 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 15:41 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 13:11 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 13:14 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:41 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 17:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:35 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-10 16:04 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 01:08 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:13 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 11:35 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-10 17:37 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:46 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-10 16:36 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 21:55 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-11 09:56 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:40 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-11 22:36 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 14:30 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:20 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-16 22:37 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 17:14 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 21:33 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 13:21 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 18:58 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 18:42 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 23:27 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-10 16:11 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 05:11 +1000

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