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Re: On the importance of standards

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: On the importance of standards
Date	2013-06-06 15:32 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<koq32a$7kc$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <51af011e.1209188506@news.demon.co.uk> <229d55d3-00ab-44c2-b015-64b5ee748775@googlegroups.com> <51af3149.1221520214@news.demon.co.uk> <koorlv$8ns$1@online.de> <a4358117-291f-4dc4-a722-617ad1907dce@googlegroups.com>

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m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl wrote:

> On Thursday, June 6, 2013 4:20:47 AM UTC+2, Bernd Paysan wrote:
> [..]
>> If you just do the easy part, and leave out the more
>> complicated part, then fine, this is Forth philosophy.
> 
> That is not the Forth philosophy and you know that very well.
> The Forth way is to do only the complicated stuff that is
> really necessary, when it is necessary, and for whom it is
> necessary. Not a single bit more. It is an AND, not an OR,
> equation.

Maybe that's how it should be.  The way VFX's extern interface arrived here 
was that MPE didn't even do the floating point stuff.  Or well, they did, 
they even had a separate floating point library which used the data stack, 
because that way you could pass floating points as integers.

That changed, after I did much begging.  AFAIK, SwiftForth still doesn't 
handle floating poing in its C bindings correct (i.e. it still simply passes 
them from the integer stack).  That was the state of art with bigForth when 
I started - the bigForth C interface went through three phases:

1. just use the data stack as is, and adjust it after the C call returns.  
This means parameters are passed in reverse, and that is a nuisance.  The 
other problem was that C functions may use a lot of stack space, much more 
than allocated for Forth stacks.

2. Use the C stack (remember where it is) and (optionally) reverse the 
parameter order, so that it is the same order as documented in C.

3. Once this has been done, using the floating point stack for floating 
point was pretty easy to add.  It had to be done for OpenGL.

The next step would be to call vtable-based interfaces, for things like JNI 
or OpenMAX.  However, as I'm more concerned about portability at the moment, 
I'm doing that effort for the Gforth C interface.

The reason why to use Swig is that current libraries have a hell lot of 
calls, constants, structures and so on, and you really don't want to 
manually deal with them.  Ideally, you should just tell the system which C 
header files and shared libraries you need, and the system should figure out 
the rest.

> I used to add "AND you do it yourself," but that part proved
> to be false.

If you are suggesting to standardize something, like Stephen is, the first 
thing you need to do is to look how others are doing it.  If nobody else is 
doing it, then you can propose your solution (that's what I did for xchars).  
If you don't look at how others do it, your suggestion will fail.

We have that problem with OOP to a much larger extent.  The first thing 
about standardizing things is to study what others have done, despite their 
code is by definition "disgusting" ;-).  Stephen's first thing is to propose 
something, without studying what others have done.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 22:42 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 23:59 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:16 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:51 +1000
        Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-11 22:03 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-11 22:32 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-12 13:06 -0700
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 22:34 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-14 19:09 -0400
            Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 22:08 +1000
          Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 23:28 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-13 07:41 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 10:10 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-13 12:33 -0500
            Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-13 07:55 -1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 12:35 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-13 23:18 +0200
            Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 12:00 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-14 19:16 -0400
  Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-03 21:32 -1000
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 01:33 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 01:36 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-04 10:14 +0000
      Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 05:51 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-04 05:46 -0500
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:13 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:47 -0400
      Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:29 -0500
        Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 04:26 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 12:03 +0000
  Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:00 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 13:20 +0000
      Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:33 -0700
        Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 13:40 +0000
          Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 07:42 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 18:02 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 09:07 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 19:16 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 14:27 -0400
                TRAVERSE-WORDLIST (was Re: On the importance of standards) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 15:55 -0700
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-14 13:39 +0200
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-14 09:06 -0700
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 17:05 +0000
  Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-04 13:51 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-05 01:24 +0200
      Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 09:25 +0000
        Re: On the importance of standards m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-05 04:31 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 05:41 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:16 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 12:41 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 12:53 +0000
            Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:20 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-06 00:06 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 15:32 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-06 17:09 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 22:44 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-06-07 10:16 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:31 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-08 00:58 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 22:02 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-09 00:55 +0200
                C interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-11 15:41 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:45 +0200
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 08:05 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-12 14:38 +0000
                Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-12 20:15 +0200
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-14 22:52 -0500
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 13:27 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 12:51 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-14 22:47 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:44 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-17 12:46 -0500
          Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-05 15:35 +0000
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 17:37 +0000
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:28 +0200
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 15:23 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 14:33 +0200
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:32 +0200
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 15:05 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-14 21:42 +0200
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:53 +0000
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-06-05 16:01 -0400
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of  standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 14:55 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of  standards) Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-06-14 15:28 -0400
        Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:14 +0200
    Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 15:25 -0500
  Re: On the importance of standards "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-04 17:48 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-04 15:06 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-04 15:40 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-05 07:30 +0200
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 04:33 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-06-05 02:09 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 19:32 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 00:06 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 22:50 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-04 19:02 -1000
      Re: On the importance of standards Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-06-05 23:16 +0000
        Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 13:43 -1000
          Re: On the importance of standards "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-06 11:14 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 15:27 -1000
              Re: On the importance of standards "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-06 15:28 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-05 00:03 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:15 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-06 14:45 -1000
      Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:24 -0700
        Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:38 -0500
          Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 14:39 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 00:57 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 10:44 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 06:11 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 14:47 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 00:03 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 15:00 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 12:26 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 15:41 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 13:11 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 13:14 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:41 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 17:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:35 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-10 16:04 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 01:08 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:13 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 11:35 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-10 17:37 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:46 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-10 16:36 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 21:55 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-11 09:56 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:40 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-11 22:36 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 14:30 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:20 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-16 22:37 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 21:33 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 13:21 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 18:42 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 23:27 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-10 16:11 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 05:11 +1000

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