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Re: On the importance of standards

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: On the importance of standards
Date	2013-06-06 04:14 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<koor9k$8md$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	<e9af6341-c048-459b-b033-0137279c7481@googlegroups.com> <51aded0f.1138518166@news.demon.co.uk> <kolsur$teb$1@online.de> <51af011e.1209188506@news.demon.co.uk>

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Stephen Pelc wrote:
>>Probably, but you complained about having to maintain 4 or 5 of these OOP
>>libraries.  What is your actual maintenance cost?  Does BerndOOF magically
>>need maintenance?  Nobody adds features!  It hasn't been touched in
>>bigForth for 10 years or so, this sort of thing shouldn't need
>>maintenance.
> 
> You use BerndOOF in MINOS. Somebody else uses package B in another
> tool, and C get used in a third tool. Naturally there's a name clash,
> so the OOP packages are hidden in wordlists/vocabularies. Now
> you've hidden the tools. Bad, Bad, Bad.

I'm aware of this name clash problems, I have them myself, and I use 
vocabularies to keep things apart.  That's what they are designed for.  If 
you want to have many libraries, you need a way to handle this problem, and 
you probably need to accept that libraries come with their own name space 
(like many other programming languages do it).

> In addition, functionality is implemented three or more times.
> Bad, Bad, Bad.

As far as I know, the existing OOP packages have sufficiently different 
funktionality that you can't say that.  They do different aspects of OOP, so 
there is no real duplication.  These differenes are the main reason why we 
can't agree on a common OOP package.

> It's a problem of library use. I use libraries to avoid reinventing
> wheels. Libraries enable me to put together higher level programs
> faster. They are a form of team programming. As with all team
> events, you have to consider the other members of the team.

Yes, but the team consists of the seven blind men and the elephant (OOP is 
definitely an elephant).

> I have no objection to having a tradional OOP library and a modernist
> OOP library standard. I have many objections to having no OOP
> standards.

You don't quite understand.  There is no traditional OOP or modernist OOP, 
there are just a bunch of different things that all do parts of what OOP is, 
in the typical Forth way that you only implement what you need.

>>The next thing we discovered when getting Swig up to interface to some
>>more modern libraries is that this DLL-style symbol export is no longer en
>>vogue in the C world.
> 
> And Forth developers now need to install a C compiler and Swig in
> order to use Forth? ... expletive deleted ... trolley and off.

Actually not, you have to use C to interface to C.  And since C is a 
language that does quite well with separate complilation and so, you need to 
do it once for a library, and then be done with it.  The vendor can do that 
for you.  If you install Gforth for Android, you get a bunch of C interfaces 
precompiled in the APK, and you don't need Swig and GCC installed on your 
phone.

The real problem with C is that the C guys don't want to be the portable 
assembler any longer, and therefore make it harder and harder to 
interoperate with their stuff from the outside.  The Windows DLL world, 
where the ABI is the API is an exception, not the rule (and the Windows DLL 
world is deprecated by Microsoft - they are now inventing new things every 
few years, and break compatibility, too).  The rule nowadays is that you 
have some functions in a shared library, some others (smaller) in a static 
library, and some third (yet even smaller) as macros in a .h file.  And that 
the developer of the library changes the implementation style from version A 
to version B.  If you don't use the C compiler on this bullshit, you are 
lost.  So you can either choose not to use this bullshit, or you can use the 
C compiler.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 22:42 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 23:59 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:16 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:51 +1000
        Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-11 22:03 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-11 22:32 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-12 13:06 -0700
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 22:34 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-14 19:09 -0400
            Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 22:08 +1000
          Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 23:28 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-13 07:41 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 10:10 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-13 12:33 -0500
            Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-13 07:55 -1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 12:35 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-13 23:18 +0200
            Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 12:00 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-14 19:16 -0400
  Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-03 21:32 -1000
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 01:33 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 01:36 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-04 10:14 +0000
      Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 05:51 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-04 05:46 -0500
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:13 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:47 -0400
      Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:29 -0500
        Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 04:26 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 12:03 +0000
  Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:00 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 13:20 +0000
      Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:33 -0700
        Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 13:40 +0000
          Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 07:42 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 18:02 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 09:07 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 19:16 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 14:27 -0400
                TRAVERSE-WORDLIST (was Re: On the importance of standards) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 15:55 -0700
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-14 13:39 +0200
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-14 09:06 -0700
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 17:05 +0000
  Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-04 13:51 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-05 01:24 +0200
      Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 09:25 +0000
        Re: On the importance of standards m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-05 04:31 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 05:41 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:16 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 12:41 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 12:53 +0000
            Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:20 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-06 00:06 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 15:32 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-06 17:09 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 22:44 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-06-07 10:16 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:31 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-08 00:58 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 22:02 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-09 00:55 +0200
                C interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-11 15:41 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:45 +0200
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 08:05 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-12 14:38 +0000
                Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-12 20:15 +0200
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-14 22:52 -0500
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 13:27 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 12:51 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-14 22:47 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:44 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-17 12:46 -0500
          Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-05 15:35 +0000
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 17:37 +0000
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:28 +0200
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 15:23 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 14:33 +0200
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:32 +0200
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 15:05 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-14 21:42 +0200
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-17 16:53 +0000
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-06-05 16:01 -0400
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of  standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 14:55 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of  standards) Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-06-14 15:28 -0400
        Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:14 +0200
    Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 15:25 -0500
  Re: On the importance of standards "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-04 17:48 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-04 15:06 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-04 15:40 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-05 07:30 +0200
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 04:33 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-06-05 02:09 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 19:32 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 00:06 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 22:50 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-04 19:02 -1000
      Re: On the importance of standards Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-06-05 23:16 +0000
        Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 13:43 -1000
          Re: On the importance of standards "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-06 11:14 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 15:27 -1000
              Re: On the importance of standards "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-06 15:28 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-05 00:03 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:15 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-06 14:45 -1000
      Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:24 -0700
        Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:38 -0500
          Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 14:39 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 00:57 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 10:44 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 06:11 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 14:47 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 00:03 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 15:00 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 12:26 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 15:41 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 13:11 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 13:14 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:41 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 17:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:35 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-10 16:04 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 01:08 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:13 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 11:35 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-10 17:37 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:46 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-10 16:36 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 21:55 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-11 09:56 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:40 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-11 22:36 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 14:30 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:20 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-16 22:37 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 21:33 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 13:21 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 18:42 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 23:27 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-10 16:11 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 05:11 +1000

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