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Re: On the importance of standards

From	Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: On the importance of standards
Date	2013-06-05 01:24 +0200
Organization	1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID	<kolsur$teb$1@online.de> (permalink)
References	<e9af6341-c048-459b-b033-0137279c7481@googlegroups.com> <51aded0f.1138518166@news.demon.co.uk>

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Stephen Pelc wrote:
> Standardising OOP, eh? I proposed the need, got shouted down by the
> "modernists", who promptly did nothing and here we are today.

Several of them proposed their OOP ideas, and needed a lot of convincing 
that they didn't see the whole picture.

> Actually, they are technically correct, but ... the real issue
> is that some topics are far better standardised as library
> implementations rather than as a standards document.

Probably, but you complained about having to maintain 4 or 5 of these OOP 
libraries.  What is your actual maintenance cost?  Does BerndOOF magically 
need maintenance?  Nobody adds features!  It hasn't been touched in bigForth 
for 10 years or so, this sort of thing shouldn't need maintenance.

> The most
> widely ported OOP package appears to be FMS, but it's far
> from fashionable among people who talk about Forth OOP.

The most portable OOP package is Mini-OOF, which just runs unchanged on 
about any Forth you can find, because it uses so few features.  It isn't 
even considered fashionable by its creator (me), but it hasn't been ported 
to anything, because it doesn't need porting.

>   http://soton.mpeforth.com/flag/fms/
> 
> A similar position exists for linking to external libraries
> and operating systems. A starting point may be found at
>   http://soton.mpeforth.com/flag/extern/

I think we need to discuss about not seeing the whole picture here, too.  
The thing why Gforth's libcc.fs syntax and your syntax look so wildly 
different comes from the different approach.  In libcc.fs, we don't need to 
speicfy the C type of the parameter, because that's what the C compiler does 
for us.  We need to specify the Forth type of the parameter.  In extern.4th, 
you specify the C type of the parameter, and you guess the Forth type from 
that.  To do that right, you need a mapping, because the relation is nowhere 
obvious.  This mapping is missing both in Gforth and in your system, and 
it's missing from the two possible sides.

The next thing we discovered when getting Swig up to interface to some more 
modern libraries is that this DLL-style symbol export is no longer en vogue 
in the C world.  Instead, you have some OOP system written in C (the 
horrors!) which mimic the vtable calls you would do in C++...  and you have 
a bunch of structures, which differ between OSes, and sometimes even between 
versions of OSes!  And you have to run it through the C compiler to figure 
out what it really does.

The next challenge is that operating systems today don't just use C.  They 
use some "managed" language like Java (Android) or .net (Windows).  There 
you go: Another need for a foreign language interface - a different one.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 22:42 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-03 23:59 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:16 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:51 +1000
        Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-11 22:03 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-11 22:32 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-12 13:06 -0700
              Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 22:34 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-14 19:09 -0400
            Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 22:08 +1000
          Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 23:28 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-13 07:41 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 10:10 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-13 12:33 -0500
            Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-13 07:55 -1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 12:35 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-13 23:18 +0200
            Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 12:00 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-14 19:16 -0400
  Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-03 21:32 -1000
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 01:33 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 01:36 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-06-04 10:14 +0000
      Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 05:51 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-04 05:46 -0500
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 11:13 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 16:47 -0400
      Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:29 -0500
        Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 04:26 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 12:03 +0000
  Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:00 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 13:20 +0000
      Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 06:33 -0700
        Re: On the importance of standards anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-04 13:40 +0000
          Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 07:42 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 18:02 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-04 09:07 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-04 19:16 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 14:27 -0400
                TRAVERSE-WORDLIST (was Re: On the importance of standards) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-13 15:55 -0700
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-14 13:39 +0200
                Re: TRAVERSE-WORDLIST Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-14 09:06 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-04 13:51 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-05 01:24 +0200
      Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 09:25 +0000
        Re: On the importance of standards m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-05 04:31 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 05:41 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:16 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-06-05 12:41 -0700
          Re: On the importance of standards stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 12:53 +0000
            Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:20 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-06-06 00:06 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 15:32 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-06 17:09 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 22:44 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-06-07 10:16 +0200
              Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:31 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-08 00:58 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-07 22:02 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-09 00:55 +0200
                C interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-11 15:41 +0000
                Re: C interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:45 +0200
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 08:05 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-12 14:38 +0000
                Re: C interface Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-12 20:15 +0200
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-14 22:52 -0500
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-12 13:27 -0500
                Re: C interface anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 12:51 +0000
                Re: C interface Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-14 22:47 -0500
          Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-05 15:35 +0000
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-06-05 17:37 +0000
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:28 +0200
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 15:23 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 14:33 +0200
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-05 21:32 +0200
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 15:05 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-06-14 21:42 +0200
            Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of standards) Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-06-05 16:01 -0400
              Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of  standards) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-06-14 14:55 +0000
                Re: Foreign language interface (was: On the importance of  standards) Spam@ControlQ.com - 2013-06-14 15:28 -0400
        Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-06 04:14 +0200
    Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 15:25 -0500
  Re: On the importance of standards "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-06-04 17:48 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-04 15:06 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2013-06-04 15:40 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2013-06-05 07:30 +0200
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 04:33 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-06-05 02:09 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-04 19:32 -0700
      Re: On the importance of standards Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-06-05 00:06 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-04 22:50 -0400
    Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-04 19:02 -1000
      Re: On the importance of standards Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-06-05 23:16 +0000
        Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 13:43 -1000
          Re: On the importance of standards "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-06 11:14 +1000
            Re: On the importance of standards Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-05 15:27 -1000
              Re: On the importance of standards "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-06-06 15:28 +1000
  Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-05 00:03 -0700
  Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 17:15 -0700
    Re: On the importance of standards "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-06-06 14:45 -1000
      Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-06 19:24 -0700
        Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-06 21:38 -0500
          Re: On the importance of standards Joshua Litt <jalitt@gmail.com> - 2013-06-07 14:39 -0700
            Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 00:57 +1000
              Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 10:44 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 06:11 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-08 14:47 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 00:03 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 15:00 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 12:26 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 15:41 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 13:11 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-09 13:14 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:41 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 17:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:35 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-10 16:04 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-15 01:08 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:13 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 11:35 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-10 17:37 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 18:46 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-06-10 16:36 -0700
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-10 20:09 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 21:55 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-06-11 09:56 -0500
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-11 18:40 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-11 22:36 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-15 14:30 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 19:20 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-06-16 22:37 +0200
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-13 21:33 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-15 13:21 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 18:42 -0400
                Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-09 23:27 +1000
                Re: On the importance of standards "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-06-10 16:11 +0000
    Re: On the importance of standards Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-06-08 05:11 +1000

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