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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12838
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels |
| Date | 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <kt6ttv$cfk$2@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | (17 earlier) <b5lg8dF4aa2U1@mid.individual.net> <kt49s0$b8d$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5lrtkF6iqcU1@mid.individual.net> <kt4kio$1fl$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5npqaFjahiU1@mid.individual.net> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Hi Joerg,
I see you are still among the living -- much to your displeasure! :>
On 7/29/2013 11:15 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> At least if the network goes down, I know in a matter of seconds!
>>>> (even if I am not home at the time)
>>>
>>> The advantage with the simple irrigation controller is that if it croaks
>>> while I am gone I can simply tell my wife where to get a new one and she
>>> can install it. With a problem somewhere in the LAN that would be a real
>>> challenge.
>>
>> What would she do if the hot water heater developed a leak?
>> I.e., you *fix* things that you rely on in a timely manner.
>
> She would have a new one installed. With a homebrew LAN that is kind of
> impossible.
But if this was a commercial product, she'd be able to buy a replacement
(or have a cold spare) just as easily as you currently can!
>> Unfortunately, many folks don't have a choice. Or, don't want to
>> give up their independence -- "yet". Our ALS friend lives by herself.
>> Despite the fact that she can no longer *speak*. We have friends
>> where one spouse is disabled -- and the other barely *able* (i.e.,
>> old). Try telling them "you should move into..." and its like
>> talking to a brick wall!
>>
>> [I wonder what I will be like when/if that time comes?]
>
> We never know. But it is beneficial to prepare oneself. Because of our
Yup. When our friend was Dx'ed with ALS, I ventured that she
should start planning her exit strategy while she was still
able to act on it. The idea wasn't well received at the time
(of course). Now, she is no longer capable of undertaking
that sort of preparation -- let alone follow-through! So, if
she gets to a point where she wants that sort of side exit,
she will have to impose on others (with legal and moral
implications!)
> volunteer activities we know most of the places in our area. It's good
> to mentally prepare. Of course that's no guarantee, I know people who in
> their younger years were perfectly willing to go into assisted living
> some day and then when the time really came fought it tooth and nail.
>>>>>>>> I think there will be a more in this direction RSN. There are
>>>>>>>> already firms touting "control your home from your iPhone"
>>>>>>>> (for only $60/month). When appliance manufacturers start
>>>>>>>> adopting integrated comms as a "standard feature", this will
>>>>>>>> get easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are touting since decade and nothing came of that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's because it is inevitable! The problem has been having a
>>>>>> public (consumer base) that is comfortable with this concept.
>>>>>> Willing to pay for it, not afraid of it, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the problem is incompetence of marketing departments. Lots of
>>>>> people
>>>>> want this. When we showed our (less than reliable) X-10 stuff to people
>>>>> they absolutely wanted it. You and I can make a good quality PLC wall
>>>>> switch that retails for $19.95, but industry obviously can't.
>>>>
>>>> Industry wants early adopters to subsidize their entire development.
>>>
>>> That will never work.
>>
>> Happens all the time! Early adopters always pay through the nose!
>> I'm hoping that circumventing the need for "big players" will let
>> "tinkerers" create a workable system -- even if a big player comes
>> in after the fact and tries to hijack the idea. (who cares as long
>> as the devices are available!)
>
> It only tends to happen for gizmos in a "must have" category. HA isn't
> cool enough, therefore it has to be reasonably price to even create a
> market.
I dunno. Friends/neighbors to whom I've shown prototypes of some
of my features (i.e., crude implementations) are blown away by
the "magic". E.g., having music follow me through the house
so I don't have to turn off the "stereo" in this room before I
move into the next room... then, turn that one on (and find the
same source material in exactly the same point -- e.g., as
if the CD in this player was perfectly synchronized to the CD
in the player I just turned off). I imagine the impact when I
can sort out the video delivery will be equally impressive!
>> Its easier than that! You do the things that automation can't
>> (i.e. load the washer). Let the automation decide when to actually
>> *wash* the clothes. Let it notify you when you are needed to
>> move the clothes into the dryer, etc.
>
> But there is nothing available at Home Depot or Lowe's to make that
> happen. Consequently it's not happening.
Here are intelligent, networkable thermostats offered at Lowes.
With suitable changes to their algorithms and the availability
of real-time energy consumption data (electric/gas), they
could easily manage a large portion of a home's power needs
(air conditioning and heating)
[forgive teh broken lines... NNTP client complains! Too lazy to
"tiny-fy" them :< ]
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_86217-22742-T200577_0__?productId=3878572&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_333-352-TZEMT400BB32MAA_0__?productId=3382198&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_370567-74493-
YTH8320ZW1007_0__?productId=3501124&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_388565-69305-CT-101-L_0__?productId=3735317&
Ntt=thermostat&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_171309-74493-
RTH8580WF1007_0__?productId=3850715&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_171234-74493-
RTH6580WF1001_0__?productId=3850713&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_486110-74493-
RTH9580WF1005_0__?productId=4746117&Ntt=thermostat&
pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
All claim to be "in stock".
Here are remote control "modules", (modern day X-10?) etc.:
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_380-352-RP200R_4294857038__?productId=3067237&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1>
<http://www.lowes.com
/pd_197357-1353-45603_4294857038__?productId=3167775&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
pl=1¤tURL=%3FgoToProdList%3Dtrue%26Ns%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
facetInfo=>
<http://www.lowes.com
/pd_193115-1353-45602_4294857038__?productId=3167765&
Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
pl=1¤tURL=%3FgoToProdList%3Dtrue%26Ns%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
facetInfo=>
If you are willing to shop at places other than just Lowes:
Here are 47 wall switches that you can talk to remotely:
<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Lighting_Appliance_Control
/Dimmers_Wall_Switches_Keypads_Touchscreens/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/z/1QV
/23V/nav.aspx>
Here are 8 "wall outlets":
<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Lighting_Appliance_Control
/Receptacles/Wire_in_Outlet_Modules/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/z/2ML/1Qb/23V
/nav.aspx>
And 32 "security:" products (door locks, thermostats, sensors):
<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Security/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/H/23V/nav.aspx>
Of course, all of those were Z-Wave comms technology. If you
prefer to use ZigBee, here are 17 products that try to manage
power to some degree:
<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Zigbee/_/2qD/nav.aspx>
If you're more of a nostalgia buff, there are still X10 products:
26 wall switches:
<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Wall_Switches_Keypads_Touchscreens
/X10_Compatible/_/1QV/23X/nav.aspx>
10 "wall wart" modules:
<http://www.smarthome.com/_/Plug_in_Screw_In_Modules/X10_Compatible
/_/1Qd/23X/nav.aspx>
LG claims a line of WiFi enabled appliances (washer/dryer.fridge/oven):
<http://www.lg.com/global/press-release/article/lg-unveils-total-
home-appliance-solution-empowering-consumers-to-smartly-manage-their-
homes.jsp>
<http://www.lgnewsroom.com/ces2012/view.php?product_code=95&
product_type=95&post_index=1828>
Sure, they are pricey. But, they represent a verified commitment
to a technology. Not like Detroit's "concept cars" that never
CLAIM to be producible but merely intended to generate "buzz"!
>> Of course, there are countless "rules" as to what it should do
>> and when. E.g., growing up, the hot water heater was undersized
>> (oil fired). So, you didn't take a shower when someone was
>> doing laundry!
>>
>> With automation, you can turn that on its head to favor the user
>> over the "appliance" -- *stop* the laundry cycle when someone
>> wants to use the shower (or, just delay when you would start the
>> cycle if you know folks will be taking showers, soon)
>
> Well, yeah, those things we tend to figure out the old-fashioned way by
> turning stuff on and off. For example, we set the sprinklers to come on
> and be through before we take our morning showers.
We have to water at different times during the day. E.g., the
roses won't tolerate missing an afternoon soak (in addition
to the wee-hours soak). And, when its windy, all bets are off!
I'd much prefer a system that can optimize when it *should* water
conditioned by monitoring our activities (i.e., presumably, our
needs are more important -- why should we have to change our
schedules to accommodate plants?)
>>> It's easy. But it will only work if the utilities or at least the public
>>> utilities commissions wisen up, and the HA industry gets into gear. In
>>> other words all that has to come together.
>>
>> You can save energy and gain convenience with automation. So,
>> use that as the "draw" and hope that others (utilities, regulators,
>> etc.) get on the bandwagon after-the-fact.
>
> Not going to work. There is no consumer payback without intelligent TOU
> tariffs. So consumers won't buy.
There are places where utilities *have* been smart, apparently,
in interacting with their consumers. E.g., SWMBO's parents
had a load shedding agreement with their provider ("cooperative")
that worked well for them.
But, most utilities are still in the greedy phase. Hoping to get
something for nothing. To actually use ToU to get *more* money
from their customers.
[When offered a ToU tariff, here, I carefully monitored out
consumption and realized we would be screwed big time. And,
we have very malleable schedules so we *could* shift a lot
of the load! Other folks would have discovered -- after the
fact -- that they could never conveniently shift enough
load to break even... let alone SAVE money! (Why else would
you want to switch to a different tariff?!]
>>>> If you can instrument these loads and give "something" control
>>>> over them, then you can more readily inspect their costs *and*
>>>> develop strategies to minimize those costs. E.g., use the swamp
>>>> cooler instead of the ACbrrr when you expect it to be reasonably
>>>> dry outside. Let the heat fall off as your "typical bedtime"
>>>> approaches (instead of casting that in concrete at a particular
>>>> time in a naive setback thermostat)
>>>
>>> Right. But there are no instruments.
>>
>> See some of my URLs. ...
>
> That's mostly alarm systems. Not very useful for real HA.
Check again. Along with the other devices I've described, here.
E.g., a refrigerator vendor knows what his appliance consumes.
And, can know what it as consumed *recently*.
Similarly, plugging a 100W lamp into a "lamp module" implicitly
tells you that every moment it is on consumes 100W.
(The problem is, you don't have anything with brains to
track this and do something with it!)
>> ... What's sorely missing is the smarts (algorithms)
>> to tie things together. "Control your home from your smartphone!"
>> "OK, besides being 1970 technology, what does that *do* for me that
>> I can't do WITHOUT the smartphone??" (i.e., why can't *you* decide
>> when to lower the thermostat?)
>
> First there needs to be the hardware, the devices that actually control
> stuff. They ain't there.
See the 100+ devices I cited above.
>> They want it all. They forget that *I* have to gain something
>> before I am willing to GIVE something!
>>
>> E.g., we have looked into PV solar (too expensive given our ages).
>> Going that route, you "sell back" surplus electricity (at a reduced
>> price!) to the utility. ...
>
> And therein lies the problem. Why is it that when we strain ourselves to
> be good and feed 8kW back at times of super-high need that the spot
> market guys get 30-40c/kWh and we get 4c? That's wrong, and is the
> reason why we have no solar at all. Now it's too late, on account of a
> new metal roof with a batten system.
Exactly.
Here, solar has taken a good foothold. In addition to all the
"solar pool heaters" (very old technology), I'm sure there are
at least 5000 sq ft of PV's within a block of our house.
(and those are all residential installs).
If you look at the commercial establishments, the deployment
of solar has been astonishing! E.g., parking lot "carports"
(areas where dozens of cars can park under a standalone "roof")
with 1000sq ft or more of PVs.
There's a little house down the road from here that has the
entire roof surface covered in PVs!
We entertained solar *water* heater but at $5K+ it was a joke!
Ditto with on-demand.
"And, when the controller board craps out, the *plumber* is
going to repair it? Oh, it's going to be a $100 service call
and a board swap. So, several hundred dollars -- instead of
just purchasing a new *gas/electric* heater every 15 years??"
>> ... Heck, why have *any* surplus? Charge
>> batteries when you have power to spare. Use the batteries to
>> power *some* of your load in the off hours (instead of buying back
>> the electricity that you just sold the utility a few hours ago
>> AT A HIGHER PRICE -- "distribution costs")
>
> Super expensive, not going to be economical. Friends had that in Mexico
> and only because there was no electricity. You don't want to know what a
> fully burdended kWh cost them.
Of course. But you could pump water uphill, etc. And, if you
invested in a cooperative effort in the neighborhood, you could
pool a fair bit of "power" -- instead of giving it away (and
buying it back a few hours later).
E.g., I have a small PV panel that I use to keep a small bank
of car batteries topped off in the garage. They run a pump
that I use to harvest rainwater (silly to pay for electricity
to conserve water!). And, I have a 1500VA inverter nearby so
I have a decent source of power (lighting, etc.) in the event of
a prolonged outage (without having to buy more expensive
batteries suitable for use indoors!)
>> <shrug> At $100, it's a bargain for piece of mind... (also pays
>> for itself when she *is* on those extended trips and would have to
>> resort to a payphone or motel phone to call home)
>
> When you get up there in age I'd consider getting one for yourself as
> well. All it takes is going on a jog and suddenly you feel the ticker
> skipping some beats.
I have a (very) long range cordless phone that I carry while
walking. E.g., I can reach the house (as an intercom) from
almost anywhere in the neighborhood (furthest corner is
about half a mile). Once I get an antenna on the roof
(instead of in the closet!), I imagine there will be no
dead spots.
>>> Quote "The service requires Time Warner Cable’s Internet service and
>>> costs $33.99 a month when bundled with cable TV or phone service. The
>>> contract, which includes a security monitoring service, is for 18
>>> months" ... You really believe that will fly? How on earth do they want
>>> to catch someone like us who will not subscribe to their cable TV or
>>> phone?
>>
>> The same sort of people who already spend $160/month! Companies
>> don't care about you or me. There are plenty of other folks eager
>> to throw money at them!
>
> I doubt they would spend an additional $34/mo for that. For umpteen
> additional sports channels, sure. For HA? Nope.
People here already spend that much for "security monitoring"
services. E.g., a bunch of PIr's and a panic button wired to
a phone line.
>>> Barbecue is off. We will eat soup tonight, can't chew anything :-(
>>
>> Bummer. Shit Happens.
>
> Yeah, pain all day, dentist on vacation for a week. But my wife made an
> excellent Zucchini soup. Someties us guys forget how much work that is,
> a lot more than if I had barbecued the meat, sausages, bread and jalapenos.
Jinx. SWMBO now has a problem. I will *thank* her for you! :>
(Pour yourself a cold one and try to forget about it!)
--don
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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
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