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Re: Cutting panels

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Don Y wrote:
> Hi Joerg,
> 
> On 7/28/2013 9:22 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 7/26/2013 11:52 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

>> on weekends and after hours I really don't want to design more
>> electronics. If your job is mainly software design or something else
>> then it's understandable, then this can be fun for your.
>>
>> That's one of the downsides of turning a hobby into a career, which I
>> kind of did once I had my master's in EE.
> 
> In my case, its *always* been my hobby *and* career!  One of the
> few people who actually looks forward to "work".  And, being
> "independent" has allowed me to go looking for projects that I'm
> interested in or that advance some aspect of learning that I
> need in achieving long term goals.
> 

I always look forward to work, I love Mondays. It's been like that since
day one of my career. But one has to keep a balance and on weekends I
prefer to do other stuff. Unless a client has a project on a hot schedule.


> I'm now in a place where I think I can tackle every aspect
> of this project -- which has been a goal for a few decades!
> Plan is for this to give me a toy to play with in my retirement!
> A chance to do something worthwhile instead of just help
> transfer money from party A to party B.
> 

Well, I've carved out another niche for retirement: lay caregiving. I'll
probably pick ham radio back up but most of the time I'll be in
volunteer situations. One of those things that just happened, I had not
planned for this but found that I really like it.


>>>> We try to keep it simple in our house. Also, I do not
>>>> want to rely on one system for all. If your LAN goes down you are
>>>> screwed. It could cause plants to die.
>>>
>>> No!  The irrigation controller can operate in the absence of the
>>> network and any "central controller".  Ditto with the HVAC
>>> (thermostat), etc.  That's the beauty of putting *smarts* at
>>> each node instead of just "field wiring".
>>>
>>> Of course, you can't *change* the irrigation criteria if you
>>> can't talk to the controller (over the LAN).

     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>>
>> That's what I meant. Ours has a knob you can turn. If a rainy phase is
>> forecast we set it to 20% or maybe zero. When a scorcher comes along it
>> needs to go back up. If LAN is the only way to achieve that then either
>> you must hand-water or plants will die.
> 
> No, the plants still get watered.  They just don't get watered
> *optimally*.  If you can't design a system that has a high degree
> of availability, then you shouldn't be designing such systems!  :>
> 

So how does your change the water quatity based on need if the LAN is
down? Above you said it can't.


> We also still have hoses!
> 

Well, that would not go over too well with my missus. Just because I
wanted to super-automate everything we'd have to stand there in the
glistening sun hand-watering for 2-3h. That is how it was when we bought
the property and then I changed that.


> When your hot water heater goes on the fritz, how long before
> you get it repaired?  Or, your household thermostat? ...


If I am on a major business trip maybe 1-2 weeks.

[...]

> 
> Learn from real-world failures so you can (where practical)
> adapt your design to address them in the future!  :>
> 

Well, I subscribe to the philosophy of keeping things simple. I only
network stuff when I have to.


>>>>> [Early on, I had considered designing the irrigation controller as
>>>>> a bunch of "one valve" controllers scattered, physically, around
>>>>> the property.  So, instead of running cable to their solenoids
>>>>> from a controller, I would run power+data to their *controllers*
>>>>> which were located adjacent to each individual valve!  But, the
>>>>> idea of having 16 little PCB's *buried* around the yard just
>>>>> felt "wrong"...  OTOH, I think when someone comes up with an
>>>>> economical, rugged "moisture sensor" suitable for below grade
>>>>> use, there will be a market for lots of "smart valves" that sit
>>>>> on the water distribution line and service one or two plants
>>>>> individually with "local" control!  "Made in China"]
>>>>
>>>> We are far, far away from that kind of automation. Most of the industry
>>>> is plain dumb when it comes to that. Except for a select few companies
>>>> but those serve higher-end markets.
>>>
>>> I think there will be a more in this direction RSN.  There are
>>> already firms touting "control your home from your iPhone"
>>> (for only $60/month).  When appliance manufacturers start
>>> adopting integrated comms as a "standard feature", this will
>>> get easier.
>>
>> They are touting since decade and nothing came of that.
> 
> That's because it is inevitable!  The problem has been having a
> public (consumer base) that is comfortable with this concept.
> Willing to pay for it, not afraid of it, etc.
> 

No, the problem is incompetence of marketing departments. Lots of people
want this. When we showed our (less than reliable) X-10 stuff to people
they absolutely wanted it. You and I can make a good quality PLC wall
switch that retails for $19.95, but industry obviously can't.


> It's actually becoming a reality.  How "visible" the progress
> is depends on which industries you are associated with and what
> sort of "news" you have available.
> 
> From:
> 
> <http://www.greenlaunches.com/gadgets-and-tech/ces-2011-shows-off-lgs-ecofriendly-networkconnected-household-appliances.php>
> 
> 
>      Appliances in the future will be a lot smarter and intelligent
>      than they are today, ...


and yada, yada, yada. I've heard that for years, if not decades. Then
when you look into it it is either just the high-end isoalted app or
it's totally overpriced.

If it doesn't sell at Lowe's or Home Depot it does not really exist.

[...]


> One problem with time-of-use tariffs has been the relative inability
> of consumers to adjust their energy loads with any level of
> convenience.  I.e., little more than "don't turn on the lights
> during the day!".
> 

The real reason is that the utilities have screwed up the smart grid.
The user has no feedback what he is currently using, no immediate
feedback about market pricing, nada, zilch.


> With "smart" appliances, tariffs *beyond* ToU can be developed
> to allow "load staggering" and effective "load shedding" -- instead
> of the slash-and-burn approach of "load shifting" that current ToU
> tariffs require of their customers.  The utility can get information
> *from* the electric meter.  But, getting *inside* the home to
> effect any real-time changes in consumption has been expensive.
> I.e., only worth instrumenting *huge* loads.
> 

Only with proper feedback and that's not happening. You cannot have a
functioning regulator when the feedback connection is not in place.


> (Who the hell wants to live *without* air conditioning during the
> peak hours?  OTOH, if a utility can arrange for my compressor
> to be off -- delaying when it kicks in by "a few minutes" -- while
> my neighbor's is on, then the utility can better shape their load,
> defer building a new power plant, etc.  E.g., this is how energy
> is managed in hotels and other large buildings.  EVERYONE has a
> refrigerator.  Half a million -- or more -- of these in a city
> represent a sizeable load if you can move it around "at will")
> 

All they have here is a crude bang-bang on-off for the compressor. It
increases short-cycling, bad for the compressor. We won't allow that.


> Then, there is the convenience appeal (which is how I have
> thus far described this).
> 
> A research paper from another appliance manufacturer:
> 
> <http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200007/000020000700A0160223.php>
> 
> Trends in development and marketing of these types of products:
> 
> <http://www.appliancedesign.com/articles/93408-home-area-networks-which-path-to-take>
> 
> 
>     ... But Lowe’s is educating homeowners, just as Best Buy does,
>     about connecting all devices and appliances in the home to some
>     type of management and control platform as well as, to a lesser
>     degree, each other.
> 

Education without reasonably priced product on the shelves means nothing.


> A few minutes with your favorite search engine will turn up more.
> 
> Gonna happen.  Count on it!  :>
> 

Again, I only believe it if Lowe's or Home Depot has it.


> Question is whether you'll be strapped into a "subscription service"
> or able to manage and control these things "locally".  (There is
> already a "dumb" service being advertised for $2/day to give you
> access to SOME of the kit in your house.  How much automation
> could $700/year buy you?)
> 

Not gonna happen. That is the wrong approach for HA, unless it is
specialty stuff where feedback to a supplier is required (I've helped
design one of those).

[...]


>>> Currently, any attempt to do something like this requires a
>>> "bolt on" product -- invariably more expensive than an integrated
>>> solution!
>>
>> And it will be like that for a long, long time. Unless folks like you or
>> me start a company nothing is going to change much in that domain. Big
>> companies obviously cannot get it done.
> 
> But it *is* getting done!  REALLY BIG companies (e.g., Samsung)
> who can and do have their fingers in lots of different markets
> (i.e., not *just* washing machines; or dishwashers; or...)
> 

So where is reasonably priced product available, right now?


> The idea of an IP TV seemed far fetched *10* years go.  Even *5*.
> Now, you have to actually worry about what your TV (not just
> your "cable box") is telling the world about you!
> 

To me that was obvious all along, even 10 years ago. I strongly believe
that the switch to digital TV was a mistake, it was already obsolete to
younger generations before it began. They stream their stuff from the
web and get it from Netflix.


>>>>>> You just brought up a perfect argument for a centralized wiring
>>>>>> closet
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> No.  All you need in that closet is the media server and however
>>>>> many pipes it needs to push enough media into your network!
>>>>
>>>> Until the network goes down one day, that is.
>>>
>>> What's far more likely to happen is a disk drive crashes and you
>>> lose the media on the drive.  The large drives that consumers would
>>> typically purchase (incorrectly!) aren't intended for continuous
>>> use.
>>
>> Well, there are no disk drives in our setup :-)
> 
> Then you have no "stored content" and have to rely on OTA/cable
> delivery (and live with whatever choices happen to exist AT THIS
> MOMENT -- i.e., even delayed viewing requires a disk!)
> 

We do have a VCR.

[...]


>>>>> If the doorbell rings, I can "see" who is at the door without
>>>>> getting up from my office chair. ...
>>>>
>>>> Our dogs will tell me :-)
>>>
>>> I've never heard a dog that could say "Bob" and "Holly"!  :>
>>> Or, "the guy from Cox cable"...
>>
>> You don't know our Labradors. Their reactions are very different. I
>> always know whether it's Fedex, a friend, a friend with dogs, or a
>> suspicious person. That's all we really need to know.
> 
> Great!  Instead of home automation, folks just need to have
> *your* dogs!  (What was your food + vet bill last year?
> How much automation would that have bought?  :> )
> 

They are also therapy dogs, visiting Alzheimer's patients and others.
How many such visit per week can a HA system do and how would it cozy up
to people?


> Do your dogs telephone you to tell you who's there while you are
> out?  Or, tell you who dropped by in your absence?  :>
> 

We don't need to know that :-)

[...]


>>>>> I've heard that when you are young(er), you want possessions;
>>>>> when older, "experiences".
>>>>
>>>> And often just pain relief. Like I right now, horrible toothache. Of
>>>> course, per Murphy that set in on a Friday night.
>>>
>>> Sorry.  I went through a similar experience recently.  I recall
>>> making the "calculations" as to whether I should seek care or
>>> risk the weekend, etc.  (here, dentists don't work on fridays
>>> either!  so, it's *three* days to reconsider your decision!)
>>
>> I decided to pay the hefty weekend/holiday surcharge. Still some pain
>> but hoping it'll go away. Anesthesia doesn't work well on me, he could
>> not get me numb enough back there with the legal limit on injections. So
>> he could not go as deep as hoped or I would have jumped out of the chair
>> from pain :-(
> 
> I had a wisdom tooth that had to come out recently.  Doctor through
> up his hands when he got to "the limit" and the tooth was still
> sensitive.  "I'm going to have to put you under".  "Um, why don't
> we just *try* and see if I can deal with the remaining pain?"
> 

Well, seems my pain is coming back :-(


>>> Agreed.  What happens when your device is "full"?  Buy another?
>>> Discard something to make room for a new addition?
>>>
>>> I've just gone with PDF and EPUB formats and use a regular PC
>>> (a tablet in this case) to view the documents.  Not as pleasant
>>> a reading experience as taking a book out to the back yard.
>>> But, if it lets me discard a whole lot of paper...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, many of the titles just aren't available in
>>> these formats.  And, the idea of cutting the binding off
>>> textbooks in order to scan their contents seems *sinful*!
>>
>> There's also another issue: I think if you scan in a book you
>> technically must keep the original as proof that you own a copy.
> 
> I'm not sure of that.  How do I prove that I have the right to
> own an eBook copy?  "Receipt"?
> 

I don't know how they work. The one's I have are standards and that's
passcode protected. So rightful ownership is fairly obvious.


> Lunch.  "The Pork Dish".  Yum, yum!!  :>
> 

We'll have tri-tip tonight, and bread and sausages. All from the old
Weber barbecue. Not sure if I can eat though, on account of the bad
molar root.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
      Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
        Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
              Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
  Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
    Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
              Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
        Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
  Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700

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