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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12840
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels |
| Date | 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700 |
| Organization | Consultant |
| Message-ID | <b5og7sFo0h7U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (18 earlier) <kt49s0$b8d$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5lrtkF6iqcU1@mid.individual.net> <kt4kio$1fl$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5npqaFjahiU1@mid.individual.net> <kt6ttv$cfk$2@speranza.aioe.org> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Don Y wrote:
> Hi Joerg,
>
> I see you are still among the living -- much to your displeasure! :>
>
Drowsy from the pain pills for the tooth ache:-(
> On 7/29/2013 11:15 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>>>> At least if the network goes down, I know in a matter of seconds!
>>>>> (even if I am not home at the time)
>>>>
>>>> The advantage with the simple irrigation controller is that if it
>>>> croaks
>>>> while I am gone I can simply tell my wife where to get a new one and
>>>> she
>>>> can install it. With a problem somewhere in the LAN that would be a
>>>> real
>>>> challenge.
>>>
>>> What would she do if the hot water heater developed a leak?
>>> I.e., you *fix* things that you rely on in a timely manner.
>>
>> She would have a new one installed. With a homebrew LAN that is kind of
>> impossible.
>
> But if this was a commercial product, she'd be able to buy a replacement
> (or have a cold spare) just as easily as you currently can!
>
But all your IP "peel-off" boxes are not available commercially.
Technically I see no major problems but logistically I do.
>>> Unfortunately, many folks don't have a choice. Or, don't want to
>>> give up their independence -- "yet". Our ALS friend lives by herself.
>>> Despite the fact that she can no longer *speak*. We have friends
>>> where one spouse is disabled -- and the other barely *able* (i.e.,
>>> old). Try telling them "you should move into..." and its like
>>> talking to a brick wall!
>>>
>>> [I wonder what I will be like when/if that time comes?]
>>
>> We never know. But it is beneficial to prepare oneself. Because of our
>
> Yup. When our friend was Dx'ed with ALS, I ventured that she
> should start planning her exit strategy while she was still
> able to act on it. The idea wasn't well received at the time
> (of course). Now, she is no longer capable of undertaking
> that sort of preparation -- let alone follow-through! So, if
> she gets to a point where she wants that sort of side exit,
> she will have to impose on others (with legal and moral
> implications!)
>
She should at least execute a medical directive. That is what friends
with a similar predicament did a long time ago.
[...]
>> It only tends to happen for gizmos in a "must have" category. HA isn't
>> cool enough, therefore it has to be reasonably price to even create a
>> market.
>
> I dunno. Friends/neighbors to whom I've shown prototypes of some
> of my features (i.e., crude implementations) are blown away by
> the "magic". E.g., having music follow me through the house
> so I don't have to turn off the "stereo" in this room before I
> move into the next room... then, turn that one on (and find the
> same source material in exactly the same point -- e.g., as
> if the CD in this player was perfectly synchronized to the CD
> in the player I just turned off). I imagine the impact when I
> can sort out the video delivery will be equally impressive!
>
Sure, but ask them what they'd be willing to fork over in Dollars for
this. Because they will put this in relation to the novelty factor other
stuff brings, and to what they paid there. Like that $200 smart phone
(not realizing that they pay the other $300 via the 2-year plan).
>>> Its easier than that! You do the things that automation can't
>>> (i.e. load the washer). Let the automation decide when to actually
>>> *wash* the clothes. Let it notify you when you are needed to
>>> move the clothes into the dryer, etc.
>>
>> But there is nothing available at Home Depot or Lowe's to make that
>> happen. Consequently it's not happening.
>
> Here are intelligent, networkable thermostats offered at Lowes.
> With suitable changes to their algorithms and the availability
> of real-time energy consumption data (electric/gas), they
> could easily manage a large portion of a home's power needs
> (air conditioning and heating)
>
> [forgive teh broken lines... NNTP client complains! Too lazy to
> "tiny-fy" them :< ]
>
> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_86217-22742-T200577_0__?productId=3878572&
> Ntt=thermostat&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
>
250 bucks for a thermostat? Are they crazy?
> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_333-352-TZEMT400BB32MAA_0__?productId=3382198&
> Ntt=thermostat&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
>
$150 is high, plus looks like proprietary network. Not for me.
> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_370567-74493-
> YTH8320ZW1007_0__?productId=3501124&Ntt=thermostat&
> pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
>
$160 plus you need to buy a Z-wave controller.
> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_388565-69305-CT-101-L_0__?productId=3735317&
> Ntt=thermostat&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
>
Must buy the IRIS system and that offer next to nothing in real home
automation:
http://www.lowes.com/cd_Starter+Kits_663889394_#1-Comparison
> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_171309-74493-
> RTH8580WF1007_0__?productId=3850715&Ntt=thermostat&
> pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
>
> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_171234-74493-
> RTH6580WF1001_0__?productId=3850713&Ntt=thermostat&
> pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
>
> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_486110-74493-
> RTH9580WF1005_0__?productId=4746117&Ntt=thermostat&
> pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=>
>
> All claim to be "in stock".
>
Yeah, but this stuff does not cut it. It is not true home automation.
> Here are remote control "modules", (modern day X-10?) etc.:
>
> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_380-352-RP200R_4294857038__?productId=3067237&
> Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1>
>
$35 is high but could be (somewhat) ok. But Z-wave has serious range
issues. It only works if you buy enough stuff or use repeaters. Then
under specs ... "UL Safety Listing .. No" -> Oops.
> <http://www.lowes.com
> /pd_197357-1353-45603_4294857038__?productId=3167775&
> Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
> pl=1¤tURL=%3FgoToProdList%3Dtrue%26Ns%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
> facetInfo=>
>
$50 is too much.
> <http://www.lowes.com
> /pd_193115-1353-45602_4294857038__?productId=3167765&
> Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
> pl=1¤tURL=%3FgoToProdList%3Dtrue%26Ns%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&
> facetInfo=>
>
Quote "This module is for use with standard incandescent lighting, 300W
maximum load" ... uhm, whom are they trying to fool? That is so last
century, sounds like gussied-up X-10. Except that my X-10 modules have
cost less than 20%. The fact that they can only operate incandescents is
one of the major shortcomings of that system. Edison bulbs are mega-out
these days.
> If you are willing to shop at places other than just Lowes:
>
> Here are 47 wall switches that you can talk to remotely:
>
Well, yeah, at boutique prices. That is the problem (plus to some extent
the Z-wave range).
> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Lighting_Appliance_Control
> /Dimmers_Wall_Switches_Keypads_Touchscreens/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/z/1QV
> /23V/nav.aspx>
>
> Here are 8 "wall outlets":
>
> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Lighting_Appliance_Control
> /Receptacles/Wire_in_Outlet_Modules/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/z/2ML/1Qb/23V
> /nav.aspx>
>
> And 32 "security:" products (door locks, thermostats, sensors):
>
> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Security/Z_Wave_Compatible/_/H/23V/nav.aspx>
>
> Of course, all of those were Z-Wave comms technology. If you
> prefer to use ZigBee, here are 17 products that try to manage
> power to some degree:
>
> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Zigbee/_/2qD/nav.aspx>
>
> If you're more of a nostalgia buff, there are still X10 products:
>
> 26 wall switches:
>
> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Dimmers_Wall_Switches_Keypads_Touchscreens
> /X10_Compatible/_/1QV/23X/nav.aspx>
>
> 10 "wall wart" modules:
>
> <http://www.smarthome.com/_/Plug_in_Screw_In_Modules/X10_Compatible
> /_/1Qd/23X/nav.aspx>
>
We have lots of X-10. It's not reliable and mostly of poor quality.
> LG claims a line of WiFi enabled appliances (washer/dryer.fridge/oven):
>
> <http://www.lg.com/global/press-release/article/lg-unveils-total-
> home-appliance-solution-empowering-consumers-to-smartly-manage-their-
> homes.jsp>
>
> <http://www.lgnewsroom.com/ces2012/view.php?product_code=95&
> product_type=95&post_index=1828>
>
> Sure, they are pricey. But, they represent a verified commitment
> to a technology. Not like Detroit's "concept cars" that never
> CLAIM to be producible but merely intended to generate "buzz"!
>
I have to disagree with you on that. HA to me is something totally
different. Not super-expensive gear where I can beam a recipe to the
oven but gear where I can control outdoor lights, media, coffee makers,
mood lighting, has sensors and so on.
>>> Of course, there are countless "rules" as to what it should do
>>> and when. E.g., growing up, the hot water heater was undersized
>>> (oil fired). So, you didn't take a shower when someone was
>>> doing laundry!
>>>
>>> With automation, you can turn that on its head to favor the user
>>> over the "appliance" -- *stop* the laundry cycle when someone
>>> wants to use the shower (or, just delay when you would start the
>>> cycle if you know folks will be taking showers, soon)
>>
>> Well, yeah, those things we tend to figure out the old-fashioned way by
>> turning stuff on and off. For example, we set the sprinklers to come on
>> and be through before we take our morning showers.
>
> We have to water at different times during the day. E.g., the
> roses won't tolerate missing an afternoon soak (in addition
> to the wee-hours soak). And, when its windy, all bets are off!
>
> I'd much prefer a system that can optimize when it *should* water
> conditioned by monitoring our activities (i.e., presumably, our
> needs are more important -- why should we have to change our
> schedules to accommodate plants?)
>
That requires real HA, not just the gizmos. The system would need to
learn your habits. The sensors are fairly easy but, as usual,
unobtanium. For example, a water meter link or flow sensor can provide
enough information to figure out "Oh, someone is taking a shower".
>>>> It's easy. But it will only work if the utilities or at least the
>>>> public
>>>> utilities commissions wisen up, and the HA industry gets into gear. In
>>>> other words all that has to come together.
>>>
>>> You can save energy and gain convenience with automation. So,
>>> use that as the "draw" and hope that others (utilities, regulators,
>>> etc.) get on the bandwagon after-the-fact.
>>
>> Not going to work. There is no consumer payback without intelligent TOU
>> tariffs. So consumers won't buy.
>
> There are places where utilities *have* been smart, apparently,
> in interacting with their consumers. E.g., SWMBO's parents
> had a load shedding agreement with their provider ("cooperative")
> that worked well for them.
>
> But, most utilities are still in the greedy phase. Hoping to get
> something for nothing. To actually use ToU to get *more* money
> from their customers.
>
Customers like us see right through that.
> [When offered a ToU tariff, here, I carefully monitored out
> consumption and realized we would be screwed big time. And,
> we have very malleable schedules so we *could* shift a lot
> of the load! Other folks would have discovered -- after the
> fact -- that they could never conveniently shift enough
> load to break even... let alone SAVE money! (Why else would
> you want to switch to a different tariff?!]
>
Exactamente. Same here.
>>>>> If you can instrument these loads and give "something" control
>>>>> over them, then you can more readily inspect their costs *and*
>>>>> develop strategies to minimize those costs. E.g., use the swamp
>>>>> cooler instead of the ACbrrr when you expect it to be reasonably
>>>>> dry outside. Let the heat fall off as your "typical bedtime"
>>>>> approaches (instead of casting that in concrete at a particular
>>>>> time in a naive setback thermostat)
>>>>
>>>> Right. But there are no instruments.
>>>
>>> See some of my URLs. ...
>>
>> That's mostly alarm systems. Not very useful for real HA.
>
> Check again. Along with the other devices I've described, here.
> E.g., a refrigerator vendor knows what his appliance consumes.
> And, can know what it as consumed *recently*.
>
> Similarly, plugging a 100W lamp into a "lamp module" implicitly
> tells you that every moment it is on consumes 100W.
>
That's not it. One must monitor the whole house and deduce from
consumption patterns what is what. Like what does it look like when
someone takes a shower? What does it look like if a pizza is baked in
the oven? Those are heavy-hitters in consumption.
> (The problem is, you don't have anything with brains to
> track this and do something with it!)
>
That's what real HA would do. It has brains. For example, our X10 has a
uC plus radio sticking in a central locatin. But it is totally
underpowered and not smart enough.
>>> ... What's sorely missing is the smarts (algorithms)
>>> to tie things together. "Control your home from your smartphone!"
>>> "OK, besides being 1970 technology, what does that *do* for me that
>>> I can't do WITHOUT the smartphone??" (i.e., why can't *you* decide
>>> when to lower the thermostat?)
>>
>> First there needs to be the hardware, the devices that actually control
>> stuff. They ain't there.
>
> See the 100+ devices I cited above.
>
To be honest, they do not impress me. Some are same old same old, others
are over-priced.
>>> They want it all. They forget that *I* have to gain something
>>> before I am willing to GIVE something!
>>>
>>> E.g., we have looked into PV solar (too expensive given our ages).
>>> Going that route, you "sell back" surplus electricity (at a reduced
>>> price!) to the utility. ...
>>
>> And therein lies the problem. Why is it that when we strain ourselves to
>> be good and feed 8kW back at times of super-high need that the spot
>> market guys get 30-40c/kWh and we get 4c? That's wrong, and is the
>> reason why we have no solar at all. Now it's too late, on account of a
>> new metal roof with a batten system.
>
> Exactly.
>
> Here, solar has taken a good foothold. In addition to all the
> "solar pool heaters" (very old technology), I'm sure there are
> at least 5000 sq ft of PV's within a block of our house.
> (and those are all residential installs).
>
Not sure where you live. Last time I flew to San Diego (few weeks ago) I
scanned the neighborhoods from above. I was very surprised how little
there was in solar installations. There were whole blocks where nobody
had solar.
> If you look at the commercial establishments, the deployment
> of solar has been astonishing! E.g., parking lot "carports"
> (areas where dozens of cars can park under a standalone "roof")
> with 1000sq ft or more of PVs.
>
Not in San Diego, where after shutting down the San Onofre plant they'd
really need it.
> There's a little house down the road from here that has the
> entire roof surface covered in PVs!
>
> We entertained solar *water* heater but at $5K+ it was a joke!
> Ditto with on-demand.
>
> "And, when the controller board craps out, the *plumber* is
> going to repair it? Oh, it's going to be a $100 service call
> and a board swap. So, several hundred dollars -- instead of
> just purchasing a new *gas/electric* heater every 15 years??"
>
Yup. If the electronics goes bad they'll likely fleece you unless you
can find out with a sharp eye that it's a particular electrolytic that
went bad. Or in my recent case an inadequately cooled linear regulator
went phut.
>>> ... Heck, why have *any* surplus? Charge
>>> batteries when you have power to spare. Use the batteries to
>>> power *some* of your load in the off hours (instead of buying back
>>> the electricity that you just sold the utility a few hours ago
>>> AT A HIGHER PRICE -- "distribution costs")
>>
>> Super expensive, not going to be economical. Friends had that in Mexico
>> and only because there was no electricity. You don't want to know what a
>> fully burdended kWh cost them.
>
> Of course. But you could pump water uphill, etc. And, if you
> invested in a cooperative effort in the neighborhood, you could
> pool a fair bit of "power" -- instead of giving it away (and
> buying it back a few hours later).
>
They'd have to build a hill first :-)
> E.g., I have a small PV panel that I use to keep a small bank
> of car batteries topped off in the garage. They run a pump
> that I use to harvest rainwater (silly to pay for electricity
> to conserve water!). And, I have a 1500VA inverter nearby so
> I have a decent source of power (lighting, etc.) in the event of
> a prolonged outage (without having to buy more expensive
> batteries suitable for use indoors!)
>
I thought about that. Harborfreight's 45W panel was down to $150 last
time I looked. Still a bit high.
[...]
>
>>>> Quote "The service requires Time Warner Cable’s Internet service and
>>>> costs $33.99 a month when bundled with cable TV or phone service. The
>>>> contract, which includes a security monitoring service, is for 18
>>>> months" ... You really believe that will fly? How on earth do they want
>>>> to catch someone like us who will not subscribe to their cable TV or
>>>> phone?
>>>
>>> The same sort of people who already spend $160/month! Companies
>>> don't care about you or me. There are plenty of other folks eager
>>> to throw money at them!
>>
>> I doubt they would spend an additional $34/mo for that. For umpteen
>> additional sports channels, sure. For HA? Nope.
>
> People here already spend that much for "security monitoring"
> services. E.g., a bunch of PIr's and a panic button wired to
> a phone line.
>
If HA gets tacked on then the monthly charge will be upped, big time.
Out here it's cheaper, unless you have them install an elaborate alarm
system which must be amortized.
>>>> Barbecue is off. We will eat soup tonight, can't chew anything :-(
>>>
>>> Bummer. Shit Happens.
>>
>> Yeah, pain all day, dentist on vacation for a week. But my wife made an
>> excellent Zucchini soup. Someties us guys forget how much work that is,
>> a lot more than if I had barbecued the meat, sausages, bread and
>> jalapenos.
>
> Jinx. SWMBO now has a problem. I will *thank* her for you! :>
>
> (Pour yourself a cold one and try to forget about it!)
>
Oh yeah, we sure will :-)
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
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