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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12816
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels |
| Date | 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <kt4kio$1fl$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | (15 earlier) <b5kur3FgfjU1@mid.individual.net> <kt3rje$5ng$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5lg8dF4aa2U1@mid.individual.net> <kt49s0$b8d$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5lrtkF6iqcU1@mid.individual.net> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Hi Joerg,
On 7/28/2013 5:39 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
>> I don't watch a calendar. Every day is the same as every other.
>> If I want to work on a car on a weekday, I work on the car. If
>> I want to write software on the weekend, I write software. I long
>> ago gave up on the idea of wearing a wristwatch. Keeping track
>> of the day of the week is virtually impossible given I don't have
>> to "report" to anyone/anyplace. And, with the absence of the
>> *seasons* (hot1, hot2, hot3 and hot4), its hard for me to even keep
>> track of the *year*! <frown> I usually get it right (when writing
>> checks) by March or so!
>
> Doesn't work well for us. Besides church there is also regular volunteer
> activity where other people rely on us to be punctual. Then numerous
> clients who do tend to work Mon-Fri. So I have to as well. And man needs
> rest once in a while. That is Sunday for us, Saturday is "chores day".
We do what we want, when we want -- for the most part. My other
half has lots of regularly scheduled "social activities". But,
aside from doctor appointments et al., my schedule is largely
left to my own choosing.
I do my volunteer work when I have time and feel in the mood. Sleep
when I'm tired. Chores when they can't be postponed any longer,
etc. Thankfully, stores tend to have long hours so I can usually
get to whichever one I need to visit *sometime* during the day...
E.g., we have a dinner appointment for Thursday that I will have to
be reminded of numerous times -- lest I find my sleep/wake schedule
has shifted to leave me sleeping when I should be entertaining! :<
>> At least if the network goes down, I know in a matter of seconds!
>> (even if I am not home at the time)
>
> The advantage with the simple irrigation controller is that if it croaks
> while I am gone I can simply tell my wife where to get a new one and she
> can install it. With a problem somewhere in the LAN that would be a real
> challenge.
What would she do if the hot water heater developed a leak?
I.e., you *fix* things that you rely on in a timely manner.
Note I can always pull the wires off *my* irrigation controller
and attach them to a storebought unit! There's nothing special about
the irrigation valves...
>> And you have only the capabilities that non-interconnected devices
>> have. If that works for you, great! You may find that folks with
>> disabilities (perhaps yourself, someday) find having to conform to
>> the requirements imposed by some sighted, nondeaf, mobile, agile,
>> young designer poses a bit of a challenge.
>>
>> [I have several friends with partial paralysis from strokes;
>> Parkinson's; ALS; missing limbs; deaf; blind or legally blind;
>> etc. The list gets *longer* as I get older! Ever watch someone
>> with Parkinsonian tremor use a mouse? "Just click on the red
>> box in the upper left corner..." Or, someone in a wheelchair
>> try to navigate to the garage to close the door before retiring?
>> Or someone blind wondering if they've turned off the lights
>> in the house before retiring? Along with ensuring the stovetop
>> is off?]
>
> That would be the point where I'd really start simplifying my life,
> getting a smaller house, maybe even consider a 55+ community. But as
> long as one spouse is ok it may not be an issue, as long as it doesn't
> cause undue overload stress level in the healthier spouse.
Unfortunately, many folks don't have a choice. Or, don't want to
give up their independence -- "yet". Our ALS friend lives by herself.
Despite the fact that she can no longer *speak*. We have friends
where one spouse is disabled -- and the other barely *able* (i.e.,
old). Try telling them "you should move into..." and its like
talking to a brick wall!
[I wonder what I will be like when/if that time comes?]
If, instead, they can avail themselves of appliances and other
living means that allow them to continue to live the lifestyle
they *choose*... <shrug>
E.g., when our ALS friend is in bed, she's there until the caregiver
gets her up in the morning! If someone comes to the front door,
she can't (physically) let them in. If she left the TV on in the
living room, it's going to *stay* on all night. If she worries
that she *might* not have turned off the stove, she won't know
until someone checks it in the morning (unless the house catches
fire before then!)
None of these things are difficult to provide. They just *haven't*
been.
If appealing to the toy desire of normal users lets quantities
increase so they become affordable for the folks who *need*
them (instead of just WANTING them)...
>>>>>> I think there will be a more in this direction RSN. There are
>>>>>> already firms touting "control your home from your iPhone"
>>>>>> (for only $60/month). When appliance manufacturers start
>>>>>> adopting integrated comms as a "standard feature", this will
>>>>>> get easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> They are touting since decade and nothing came of that.
>>>>
>>>> That's because it is inevitable! The problem has been having a
>>>> public (consumer base) that is comfortable with this concept.
>>>> Willing to pay for it, not afraid of it, etc.
>>>
>>> No, the problem is incompetence of marketing departments. Lots of people
>>> want this. When we showed our (less than reliable) X-10 stuff to people
>>> they absolutely wanted it. You and I can make a good quality PLC wall
>>> switch that retails for $19.95, but industry obviously can't.
>>
>> Industry wants early adopters to subsidize their entire development.
>
> That will never work.
Happens all the time! Early adopters always pay through the nose!
I'm hoping that circumventing the need for "big players" will let
"tinkerers" create a workable system -- even if a big player comes
in after the fact and tries to hijack the idea. (who cares as long
as the devices are available!)
>>>> One problem with time-of-use tariffs has been the relative inability
>>>> of consumers to adjust their energy loads with any level of
>>>> convenience. I.e., little more than "don't turn on the lights
>>>> during the day!".
>>>
>>> The real reason is that the utilities have screwed up the smart grid.
>>> The user has no feedback what he is currently using, no immediate
>>> feedback about market pricing, nada, zilch.
>>
>> But there is nothing for the user to *do* with that information!
>> How does he *know* what loads to shed to reap a given level of reward?
>> Does he even know *where* his power is being consumed? Or, when?
>> If he could look at a wall display and see it showing KW/Hr (i.e.,
>> "rate"), how could he determine *what* was contributing to that
>> figure? Run around turning things on and off and then run back to
>> see what the display indicates?
>
> This is exactly what home automation is for. Say someone starts loading
> the dryer. The computer in there senses the door being opened, then
> responds "Hey, a kWh is 45c right now, sure you want to do this?
> Yesterday it was down to 16c by 7:30pm". Or it could just suggest to
> impulse-tumble the load until the prices drop, then step on it and
> notify you on the display panels. You can hit [YES] or [NO].
Its easier than that! You do the things that automation can't
(i.e. load the washer). Let the automation decide when to actually
*wash* the clothes. Let it notify you when you are needed to
move the clothes into the dryer, etc.
Of course, there are countless "rules" as to what it should do
and when. E.g., growing up, the hot water heater was undersized
(oil fired). So, you didn't take a shower when someone was
doing laundry!
With automation, you can turn that on its head to favor the user
over the "appliance" -- *stop* the laundry cycle when someone
wants to use the shower (or, just delay when you would start the
cycle if you know folks will be taking showers, soon)
> It's easy. But it will only work if the utilities or at least the public
> utilities commissions wisen up, and the HA industry gets into gear. In
> other words all that has to come together.
You can save energy and gain convenience with automation. So,
use that as the "draw" and hope that others (utilities, regulators,
etc.) get on the bandwagon after-the-fact.
The problem has been that automation involves too many DIFFERENT
aspects of a home (we have not talked about businesses!). So,
its unlikely that manufacturer A will have its hands in LOTS of
these areas in order to pitch a unified, consistent framework
for "devices".
I.e., the solution has to come from outside those industries.
Put something in place. *Hope* people embrace it ("Hey, it
exists, its free, and its better than nothing!") and then
hope vendors follow.
>> ... SWMBO complained that the computers were drawing too much
>> power. I left the computers on and swapped out the plasma TV for
>> a conventional one (plasma needed service). When the next month's
>> bill dropped significantly, she wondered how -- given that the
>> computers were still humming along...
>>
>> If you can instrument these loads and give "something" control
>> over them, then you can more readily inspect their costs *and*
>> develop strategies to minimize those costs. E.g., use the swamp
>> cooler instead of the ACbrrr when you expect it to be reasonably
>> dry outside. Let the heat fall off as your "typical bedtime"
>> approaches (instead of casting that in concrete at a particular
>> time in a naive setback thermostat)
>
> Right. But there are no instruments.
See some of my URLs. What's sorely missing is the smarts (algorithms)
to tie things together. "Control your home from your smartphone!"
"OK, besides being 1970 technology, what does that *do* for me that
I can't do WITHOUT the smartphone??" (i.e., why can't *you* decide
when to lower the thermostat?)
>> ... The problem has been getting to
>> the actual *loads* in a "user acceptable" manner. E.g., the
>> CAL-TOU spec is 20+ years old (?). You will encounter smart
>> meters on many businesses and a few homes (e.g., "all electric"
>> homes where they have a different tariff to account for their
>> heating costs, etc.). But, what's the incentive for the utility
>> to deploy these on residences? Unless the consumer is willing to
>> sign up for a ToU tariff, why bother? (e.g., we can avail ourselves
>> of such a tariff but the terms are ludicrous so we'll stick with
>> the conventional tariff)
>
> Correct, because of ludicrous terms we also have no TOU. Someone needs
> to wake up first, and that's not happening.
They want it all. They forget that *I* have to gain something
before I am willing to GIVE something!
E.g., we have looked into PV solar (too expensive given our ages).
Going that route, you "sell back" surplus electricity (at a reduced
price!) to the utility. Heck, why have *any* surplus? Charge
batteries when you have power to spare. Use the batteries to
power *some* of your load in the off hours (instead of buying back
the electricity that you just sold the utility a few hours ago
AT A HIGHER PRICE -- "distribution costs")
>> How much is a TV worth? When will you decide that 102" diag
>> TV is "priced right"? Prices evolve. As does acceptance and
>> desire for features/capabilities.
>
> Totally different thing. A 102" TV is bought because the neighbor just
> got a 95" set and that peeved the other guy. Or it's football season. Or
> whatever.
>
> HA, in contrast, is a business proposition just like TOU or solar is. If
> it doesn't compute then people will not buy. Even I won't.
I don't see it that way. For businesses, there is a value decision
involved. For consumers, I still think there is a lot of "toy"
factor. "Have you seen the Jones' house? It practically wipes
your ass for you!"
>> We've still decided cell phones are "too expensive" based on
>> the level of use that they would see, here. Other folks spend
>> $100+ a month. For a *phone*???
>
> Well, we have ours for emergencies and I do for business. Costs us
> around $7/phone/mo. Worth it. We don't even use up the roughly 30mins/mo
> that buys so they keep piling up.
My other half has one "for emergencies". $100/year (I believe there
are cheaper alternatives but she needed something that had widespread
coverage as she was making annual drives up through some of the
lesser populated/developed portions of the state, into Utah, etc.
so that restricted her choices)
She has *once* used it for an emergency. The other times have been
"I'm at Trader Joe's. Do you want anything?"
<shrug> At $100, it's a bargain for piece of mind... (also pays
for itself when she *is* on those extended trips and would have to
resort to a payphone or motel phone to call home)
>>>> Question is whether you'll be strapped into a "subscription service"
>>>> or able to manage and control these things "locally". (There is
>>>> already a "dumb" service being advertised for $2/day to give you
>>>> access to SOME of the kit in your house. How much automation
>>>> could $700/year buy you?)
>>>
>>> Not gonna happen. That is the wrong approach for HA, unless it is
>>> specialty stuff where feedback to a supplier is required (I've helped
>>> design one of those).
>>
>> Already happening.
>>
>> <http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/04/26/att-launching-home-security-and-automation-service/2113511/>
>
> So AT&T wants to become another alarm company? <yawn>
EVERYONE wants to be in the services business! I suspect we will
see "subsidized appliances" in the future -- once they figure out
how to get those appliances to snitch on your usage patterns!
Then, sell that information to vendors who can pitch items to
you *in* your home!
(Like: "Free phone with 2 year contract...")
>> <http://www.cedmagazine.com/articles/2012/04/home-automation-the-new-frontier-for-service-providers>
>
> Quote "but the base price starts at $39.95 a month plus an installation
> fee" -> DOA.
But it isn't! Folks are willing to pay for security monitoring
services (surveillance), "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up",
etc. It's a wonder anyone has disposable income given all the
vendors trying to nickel and dime them to death! :<
(Most "services" are articifial. Why do I need to pay someone
$2/day so I can control SOME of my appliances from my iPhone?
Why can't my phone contact my home directly -- instead of
going THROUGH your "service")
>> <http://www.homesecurityhomeautomation.com/>
>>
>> <http://www.in-homeautomation.com/>
>>
>> <http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2013/06/03/time-warner-launches-home-automation-service.html>
>
> Quote "The service requires Time Warner Cable’s Internet service and
> costs $33.99 a month when bundled with cable TV or phone service. The
> contract, which includes a security monitoring service, is for 18
> months" ... You really believe that will fly? How on earth do they want
> to catch someone like us who will not subscribe to their cable TV or phone?
The same sort of people who already spend $160/month! Companies
don't care about you or me. There are plenty of other folks eager
to throw money at them!
>> FWIW, google would love to get into this! Not just see what
>> you go looking for "on-line" but see what you *do* inside
>> your home!
>
> So why don't they? They've got enough money. A few years ago they were
> on the right track by starting an eneergy monitoring thing. But then
> ditched it ...
They've embraced Arduino in the hope that folks will design
Arduino based gizmos... that they can eventually talk to.
Google wants to *live* in your pants (pocket)!
>>> So where is reasonably priced product available, right now?
>>
>> Depends on what you consider "reasonable". E.g., I don't consider
>> $3 for a single CAT5 keystone connector "reasonable". But,
>> apparently, there are peole who *do* (because you see them sold at
>> those prices and shelf stock varying over time)
>
> A keystone connector won't make home automation happen. That needs a lot
> more stuff.
Sure. My point was there are folks who are willing to pay that
price for a flimsy little connector. What are they willing to
pay for the rest of the enchilada?
>> Good luck with your tooth!
>
> Barbecue is off. We will eat soup tonight, can't chew anything :-(
Bummer. Shit Happens.
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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
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