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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12805
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels |
| Date | 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <kt49s0$b8d$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | (13 earlier) <b5h91sF6vf6U1@mid.individual.net> <kt1p34$3k9$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5kur3FgfjU1@mid.individual.net> <kt3rje$5ng$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5lg8dF4aa2U1@mid.individual.net> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Hi Joerg, On 7/28/2013 2:20 PM, Joerg wrote: >> In my case, its *always* been my hobby *and* career! One of the >> few people who actually looks forward to "work". And, being >> "independent" has allowed me to go looking for projects that I'm >> interested in or that advance some aspect of learning that I >> need in achieving long term goals. > > I always look forward to work, I love Mondays. It's been like that since > day one of my career. But one has to keep a balance and on weekends I > prefer to do other stuff. Unless a client has a project on a hot schedule. I don't watch a calendar. Every day is the same as every other. If I want to work on a car on a weekday, I work on the car. If I want to write software on the weekend, I write software. I long ago gave up on the idea of wearing a wristwatch. Keeping track of the day of the week is virtually impossible given I don't have to "report" to anyone/anyplace. And, with the absence of the *seasons* (hot1, hot2, hot3 and hot4), its hard for me to even keep track of the *year*! <frown> I usually get it right (when writing checks) by March or so! >>>> Of course, you can't *change* the irrigation criteria if you >>>> can't talk to the controller (over the LAN). > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >>> That's what I meant. Ours has a knob you can turn. If a rainy phase is >>> forecast we set it to 20% or maybe zero. When a scorcher comes along it >>> needs to go back up. If LAN is the only way to achieve that then either >>> you must hand-water or plants will die. >> >> No, the plants still get watered. They just don't get watered >> *optimally*. If you can't design a system that has a high degree >> of availability, then you shouldn't be designing such systems! :> > > So how does your change the water quatity based on need if the LAN is > down? Above you said it can't. I can't. But, I can still ensure they get watered! I can't adjust the indoor household conditions based on outdoor conditions unless I can talk to the weatherstation. But, that doesn't mean the house will be 95 degrees in Summer or 62 in Winter! How do you deal with your irrigation controller breaking? You *fix* it. How do you *know* it's broken? You have to visually observe the wetness of the soil, droop of the plants, etc. At least if the network goes down, I know in a matter of seconds! (even if I am not home at the time) >> Learn from real-world failures so you can (where practical) >> adapt your design to address them in the future! :> > > Well, I subscribe to the philosophy of keeping things simple. I only > network stuff when I have to. And you have only the capabilities that non-interconnected devices have. If that works for you, great! You may find that folks with disabilities (perhaps yourself, someday) find having to conform to the requirements imposed by some sighted, nondeaf, mobile, agile, young designer poses a bit of a challenge. [I have several friends with partial paralysis from strokes; Parkinson's; ALS; missing limbs; deaf; blind or legally blind; etc. The list gets *longer* as I get older! Ever watch someone with Parkinsonian tremor use a mouse? "Just click on the red box in the upper left corner..." Or, someone in a wheelchair try to navigate to the garage to close the door before retiring? Or someone blind wondering if they've turned off the lights in the house before retiring? Along with ensuring the stovetop is off?] >>>>> We are far, far away from that kind of automation. Most of the industry >>>>> is plain dumb when it comes to that. Except for a select few companies >>>>> but those serve higher-end markets. >>>> >>>> I think there will be a more in this direction RSN. There are >>>> already firms touting "control your home from your iPhone" >>>> (for only $60/month). When appliance manufacturers start >>>> adopting integrated comms as a "standard feature", this will >>>> get easier. >>> >>> They are touting since decade and nothing came of that. >> >> That's because it is inevitable! The problem has been having a >> public (consumer base) that is comfortable with this concept. >> Willing to pay for it, not afraid of it, etc. > > No, the problem is incompetence of marketing departments. Lots of people > want this. When we showed our (less than reliable) X-10 stuff to people > they absolutely wanted it. You and I can make a good quality PLC wall > switch that retails for $19.95, but industry obviously can't. Industry wants early adopters to subsidize their entire development. E.g., witness what "structured wiring" costs if purchased in the consumer marketplace (vs. what the same sorts of items *have* cost for Industry). >> It's actually becoming a reality. How "visible" the progress >> is depends on which industries you are associated with and what >> sort of "news" you have available. >> >> From: >> >> <http://www.greenlaunches.com/gadgets-and-tech/ces-2011-shows-off-lgs-ecofriendly-networkconnected-household-appliances.php> >> >> Appliances in the future will be a lot smarter and intelligent >> than they are today, ... > > and yada, yada, yada. I've heard that for years, if not decades. Then > when you look into it it is either just the high-end isoalted app or > it's totally overpriced. > > If it doesn't sell at Lowe's or Home Depot it does not really exist. Note that the article referenced Loew's *and* Home Depot. As I said, "RSN". >> One problem with time-of-use tariffs has been the relative inability >> of consumers to adjust their energy loads with any level of >> convenience. I.e., little more than "don't turn on the lights >> during the day!". > > The real reason is that the utilities have screwed up the smart grid. > The user has no feedback what he is currently using, no immediate > feedback about market pricing, nada, zilch. But there is nothing for the user to *do* with that information! How does he *know* what loads to shed to reap a given level of reward? Does he even know *where* his power is being consumed? Or, when? If he could look at a wall display and see it showing KW/Hr (i.e., "rate"), how could he determine *what* was contributing to that figure? Run around turning things on and off and then run back to see what the display indicates? Do you *know* what's burning power in your home on any given minute of any day? SWMBO complained that the computers were drawing too much power. I left the computers on and swapped out the plasma TV for a conventional one (plasma needed service). When the next month's bill dropped significantly, she wondered how -- given that the computers were still humming along... If you can instrument these loads and give "something" control over them, then you can more readily inspect their costs *and* develop strategies to minimize those costs. E.g., use the swamp cooler instead of the ACbrrr when you expect it to be reasonably dry outside. Let the heat fall off as your "typical bedtime" approaches (instead of casting that in concrete at a particular time in a naive setback thermostat) >> With "smart" appliances, tariffs *beyond* ToU can be developed >> to allow "load staggering" and effective "load shedding" -- instead >> of the slash-and-burn approach of "load shifting" that current ToU >> tariffs require of their customers. The utility can get information >> *from* the electric meter. But, getting *inside* the home to >> effect any real-time changes in consumption has been expensive. >> I.e., only worth instrumenting *huge* loads. > > Only with proper feedback and that's not happening. You cannot have a > functioning regulator when the feedback connection is not in place. Meter technology is old hat. The problem has been getting to the actual *loads* in a "user acceptable" manner. E.g., the CAL-TOU spec is 20+ years old (?). You will encounter smart meters on many businesses and a few homes (e.g., "all electric" homes where they have a different tariff to account for their heating costs, etc.). But, what's the incentive for the utility to deploy these on residences? Unless the consumer is willing to sign up for a ToU tariff, why bother? (e.g., we can avail ourselves of such a tariff but the terms are ludicrous so we'll stick with the conventional tariff) >> (Who the hell wants to live *without* air conditioning during the >> peak hours? OTOH, if a utility can arrange for my compressor >> to be off -- delaying when it kicks in by "a few minutes" -- while >> my neighbor's is on, then the utility can better shape their load, >> defer building a new power plant, etc. E.g., this is how energy >> is managed in hotels and other large buildings. EVERYONE has a >> refrigerator. Half a million -- or more -- of these in a city >> represent a sizeable load if you can move it around "at will") > > All they have here is a crude bang-bang on-off for the compressor. It > increases short-cycling, bad for the compressor. We won't allow that. Exactly. OTOH, if you could talk *to* the thermostat and see what it has done "recently", it could suggest whether now would be a good/great/terrible time to gate it off. (e.g., if the compressor JUST turned off, this is the ideal time for you to shift the load to a neighbor's home). It's conceivable that an interactive automation system could *bid* on conservation. "I'm willing to forego a load of X for a period of Y, *now*" and let the utility accept/reject these bids in real time to better *manage* the load -- with the consent of the consumer! >> Then, there is the convenience appeal (which is how I have >> thus far described this). >> >> A research paper from another appliance manufacturer: >> >> <http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200007/000020000700A0160223.php> >> >> Trends in development and marketing of these types of products: >> >> <http://www.appliancedesign.com/articles/93408-home-area-networks-which-path-to-take> >> >> >> ... But Lowe’s is educating homeowners, just as Best Buy does, >> about connecting all devices and appliances in the home to some >> type of management and control platform as well as, to a lesser >> degree, each other. > > Education without reasonably priced product on the shelves means nothing. How much is a TV worth? When will you decide that 102" diag TV is "priced right"? Prices evolve. As does acceptance and desire for features/capabilities. We've still decided cell phones are "too expensive" based on the level of use that they would see, here. Other folks spend $100+ a month. For a *phone*??? >> Question is whether you'll be strapped into a "subscription service" >> or able to manage and control these things "locally". (There is >> already a "dumb" service being advertised for $2/day to give you >> access to SOME of the kit in your house. How much automation >> could $700/year buy you?) > > Not gonna happen. That is the wrong approach for HA, unless it is > specialty stuff where feedback to a supplier is required (I've helped > design one of those). Already happening. <http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/04/26/att-launching-home-security-and-automation-service/2113511/> <http://www.cedmagazine.com/articles/2012/04/home-automation-the-new-frontier-for-service-providers> <http://www.homesecurityhomeautomation.com/> <http://www.in-homeautomation.com/> <http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2013/06/03/time-warner-launches-home-automation-service.html> etc. FWIW, google would love to get into this! Not just see what you go looking for "on-line" but see what you *do* inside your home! New TV's "watch" (literally) their viewers. "Hmmm... I guess that commercial wasn't very effective. Everyone left the room when it aired!" >>>> Currently, any attempt to do something like this requires a >>>> "bolt on" product -- invariably more expensive than an integrated >>>> solution! >>> >>> And it will be like that for a long, long time. Unless folks like you or >>> me start a company nothing is going to change much in that domain. Big >>> companies obviously cannot get it done. >> >> But it *is* getting done! REALLY BIG companies (e.g., Samsung) >> who can and do have their fingers in lots of different markets >> (i.e., not *just* washing machines; or dishwashers; or...) > > So where is reasonably priced product available, right now? Depends on what you consider "reasonable". E.g., I don't consider $3 for a single CAT5 keystone connector "reasonable". But, apparently, there are peole who *do* (because you see them sold at those prices and shelf stock varying over time) We were stunned when we went looking at refrigerators. Many $K for modest ones. And, lots of them with fancy displays, internet connectivity, etc. From: <http://www.gizmag.com/go/1132/> "The LG adverts on telly don't do it justice. The LG Internet Refrigerator has the coolest set of features ever seen in the kitchen. It is a 730 litre, stainless-steel, side by side fridge, with an in-built computer which can be accessed via a 37 centimetre touch-screen LCD monitor mounted on the fridge door. Users can watch TV, listen to MP3 music, take and store digital photos, make a video phone call, use the fridge as a message board or surf the web. It also has VCR and DVD ports, a microphone and speakers. Information about food in the fridge can be stored and a map of the fridge allows the owner to keep an inventory of what foods are in each section and how long they have been there. It's biggest advantage will be its functionality as a food management system. It also has an inbuilt hard drive and modem, so that the appliance can be 'connected' by simply running a phone connection into it. $15,000 is the anticipated RRP when it's released later this year. " $15K for an icebox??? WTF??! But, you can bet someone will buy it! And, just like $10,000 VTR's, they lead the way to the cheaper versions that follow! A stainless steel car??? (DeLorean) >>> You don't know our Labradors. Their reactions are very different. I >>> always know whether it's Fedex, a friend, a friend with dogs, or a >>> suspicious person. That's all we really need to know. >> >> Great! Instead of home automation, folks just need to have >> *your* dogs! (What was your food + vet bill last year? >> How much automation would that have bought? :> ) > > They are also therapy dogs, visiting Alzheimer's patients and others. > How many such visit per week can a HA system do and how would it cozy up > to people? I can always buy a dog! You can't buy an automation system until someone makes one affordable! >> Do your dogs telephone you to tell you who's there while you are >> out? Or, tell you who dropped by in your absence? :> > > We don't need to know that :-) Ah, I want to know if a client stopped by in my absence. Or, if a neighbor who was *going* to stop by did so and I happened to have mistimed a trip to the store (so I don't call and ask him *when* he's going to stop by... only to be greeted with "I was there two hours ago and no one answered the door") >>> I decided to pay the hefty weekend/holiday surcharge. Still some pain >>> but hoping it'll go away. Anesthesia doesn't work well on me, he could >>> not get me numb enough back there with the legal limit on injections. So >>> he could not go as deep as hoped or I would have jumped out of the chair >>> from pain :-( >> >> I had a wisdom tooth that had to come out recently. Doctor through >> up his hands when he got to "the limit" and the tooth was still >> sensitive. "I'm going to have to put you under". "Um, why don't >> we just *try* and see if I can deal with the remaining pain?" > > Well, seems my pain is coming back :-( Sorry. Tooth pain is a special kind of pain! >> Lunch. "The Pork Dish". Yum, yum!! :> > > We'll have tri-tip tonight, and bread and sausages. All from the old > Weber barbecue. Not sure if I can eat though, on account of the bad > molar root. Bummer. Nice big piece of tenderloin for today's meal. She complains, "Lately, the pieces seem to be really large!" He just smiles and says, "Really? I hadn't noticed..." ;-) Good luck with your tooth! --don
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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
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