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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12795
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels |
| Date | 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700 |
| Organization | Consultant |
| Message-ID | <b5kur3FgfjU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (10 earlier) <ksplpj$r4o$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5flh4Fr90vU1@mid.individual.net> <ksufhc$4o7$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5h91sF6vf6U1@mid.individual.net> <kt1p34$3k9$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Don Y wrote:
> Hi Joerg,
>
> On 7/26/2013 11:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>> Given that you can (conceivably) do the communications wirelessly
>>> (I see lots of downside risk in that approach which is why I haven't
>>> gone that route, initially), you could put little black boxes all
>>> over the place and never have to worry about pulling cables "inside".
>>
>> But what do all those little black boxes cost in terms of money and
>> install effort?
>
> For me? A lot! But, that's because I can't just go to a store
> and *buy* most of them! E.g., if my hot water heater had a network
> connection, then I wouldn't need to design and install something
> to control it!
>
> Ditto garage door opener, irrigation system, etc.
>
Not an option for me. I design electronics for a living all day long. So
on weekends and after hours I really don't want to design more
electronics. If your job is mainly software design or something else
then it's understandable, then this can be fun for your.
That's one of the downsides of turning a hobby into a career, which I
kind of did once I had my master's in EE.
[...]
>> We try to keep it simple in our house. Also, I do not
>> want to rely on one system for all. If your LAN goes down you are
>> screwed. It could cause plants to die.
>
> No! The irrigation controller can operate in the absence of the
> network and any "central controller". Ditto with the HVAC
> (thermostat), etc. That's the beauty of putting *smarts* at
> each node instead of just "field wiring".
>
> Of course, you can't *change* the irrigation criteria if you
> can't talk to the controller (over the LAN).
>
That's what I meant. Ours has a knob you can turn. If a rainy phase is
forecast we set it to 20% or maybe zero. When a scorcher comes along it
needs to go back up. If LAN is the only way to achieve that then either
you must hand-water or plants will die.
>>> [Early on, I had considered designing the irrigation controller as
>>> a bunch of "one valve" controllers scattered, physically, around
>>> the property. So, instead of running cable to their solenoids
>>> from a controller, I would run power+data to their *controllers*
>>> which were located adjacent to each individual valve! But, the
>>> idea of having 16 little PCB's *buried* around the yard just
>>> felt "wrong"... OTOH, I think when someone comes up with an
>>> economical, rugged "moisture sensor" suitable for below grade
>>> use, there will be a market for lots of "smart valves" that sit
>>> on the water distribution line and service one or two plants
>>> individually with "local" control! "Made in China"]
>>
>> We are far, far away from that kind of automation. Most of the industry
>> is plain dumb when it comes to that. Except for a select few companies
>> but those serve higher-end markets.
>
> I think there will be a more in this direction RSN. There are
> already firms touting "control your home from your iPhone"
> (for only $60/month). When appliance manufacturers start
> adopting integrated comms as a "standard feature", this will
> get easier.
>
They are touting since decade and nothing came of that.
> E.g., you see cars with iPod connections built in...
>
Yeah, to charge them or play the music. <yawn>
> Currently, any attempt to do something like this requires a
> "bolt on" product -- invariably more expensive than an integrated
> solution!
>
And it will be like that for a long, long time. Unless folks like you or
me start a company nothing is going to change much in that domain. Big
companies obviously cannot get it done.
>>>>> But, in both cases, the "media" is sourced from the lower 18" of this
>>>>> "closet". I have a dual OTA DTV receiver (media pump) so I can
>>>>> source two OTA broadcasts simultaneously (route one to a live
>>>>> display and the other to a DVR; or both to live displays; or both
>>>>> to DVRs, etc.). I need to purchase a second one since I think
>>>>> you need to be able to access 4 "programs" concurrently in a house
>>>>> of 4 people (sad! but, easy to see two being watched simultaneously
>>>>> and possibly recording another for later viewing: "Dad, Betsy won't
>>>>> let me record my TV show cuz she's recording some stupid sitcom
>>>>> that she's already seen!").
>>>>>
>>>>> "Consuming" the media happens wherever you have a suitable "player".
>>>>> E.g., you can listen to a telephone call on a "network speaker"
>>>>> or (eventually) route it through whatever you are using to listen
>>>>> to a television program, etc. Of course, you can record it just
>>>>> as easily. Want to pull weeds while listening to the TV news?
>>>>> Just pop a BT earpiece in your ear...
>>>>
>>>> You just brought up a perfect argument for a centralized wiring closet
>>>> :-)
>>>
>>> No. All you need in that closet is the media server and however
>>> many pipes it needs to push enough media into your network!
>>
>> Until the network goes down one day, that is.
>
> What's far more likely to happen is a disk drive crashes and you
> lose the media on the drive. The large drives that consumers would
> typically purchase (incorrectly!) aren't intended for continuous
> use.
>
Well, there are no disk drives in our setup :-)
Also, computers and LAN servers for my office run on average 10h/day. So
far only one has croaked in over 10 years. Because of backups that took
only about an hour and $60 to fix.
>>> Here, I collocated the main processors (which include those that
>>> actually serve up the media), network switch/router and UPS in
>>> that location. But, the rest of the bits of kit (irrigation,
>>> security, etc.) are scattered around wherever it makes most sense
>>> for them. E.g., the processors that monitor the video feeds are
>>> located up in the eaves, adjacent to their individual cameras.
>>>
>>> If the doorbell rings, I can "see" who is at the door without
>>> getting up from my office chair. ...
>>
>> Our dogs will tell me :-)
>
> I've never heard a dog that could say "Bob" and "Holly"! :>
> Or, "the guy from Cox cable"...
>
You don't know our Labradors. Their reactions are very different. I
always know whether it's Fedex, a friend, a friend with dogs, or a
suspicious person. That's all we really need to know.
[...]
>>> 90 degrees isn't particularly taxing. It's probably almost that in
>>> my office (poor ventilation and several servers running at once).
>>> I think google's "cold aisle" is claimed to be 80F.
>>>
>>> But, Ma & Pa Consumer probably would be annoyed if they had to
>>> replace the "media store" on their multimedia server every year
>>> because it couldn't handle the 140 degrees in the garage
>>> ("How do we recover all the stuff we had on the drive before it
>>> died? We had videos of our 50th wedding anniversary with the
>>> grandkids...")
>>
>> If the garage is 140F on a regular basis you have a problem. Your cars
>> won't like that for very long. I'd fix that (ventilation etc.).
>
> When it's 110+ outside, it's hard for the garage NOT to creep up!
> (We were at or above 100F for the entire month of June and another
> 10 days into July)
>
Same here but our garage is vented.
> Ours is reasonably cool with the insulated door (it also faces
> east so avoids the afternoon sun shining on the door). Most
> neighbors leave their garage doors cracked and/or leave the
> "side door" that opens into the garage open (behind a security
> door) for ventilation.
>
>>> Yeah, I am already imagining what things will be like when
>>> manufacturers start selling products with these sorts of
>>> capabilities. And, users start downloading apps of dubious
>>> quality to *run* their automation...
>>>
>>> "Why is my hot water heater set at 190F?"
>>> "Why is all the meat in the freezer thawed?"
>>> "Who left the garage door open?"
>>> "Ack! The roses are sitting in 6 inches of standing water!"
>>> "How did Bob, next door, manage to see me in the shower?"
>>
>> "... and why does the virus scanner say found Stux-sumpthin'?"
>
> I've protected against that, here. But, "consumers" wouldn't
> be as lucky -- since they would naively "enable updates" and.or
> haphazzardly install all sorts of "free" cruft without concern
> for *why* it's "free"! :>
>
Yup. But you are only resonably protected if you cut all web access. The
minute you use any kind of OS or "software in a can" you are vulnerable.
>>> It's just insane that they *don't* build below grade here (AZ).
>>> Especially considering the heat in Summer. Cooling load would be
>>> absolutely non-existent!
>>
>> Builders are either not smart or plain don't care about energy.
>
> They care only about how cheaply they can produce a home and
> how quickly they can unload it.
>
> And, most home *purchasers* aren't competent to evaluate the
> shortcomings of a home. "Oh, look, Honey! There's a big tree
> in the back yard like the house I grew up in!!" <frown>
>
Not so much out here. A lot of people resort to building their own
house, with their bare hands. And those tend to be the upscale buyers,
or what would have been upscale buyers.
[...]
>>>>> Early in my career, I worried almost exclusively about how well
>>>>> things *worked* without regard for what they looked like (I have
>>>>> many prototypes fabricated "on a wooden plank" or "in a wooden
>>>>> enclosure"). I think its only after you get that skill-set
>>>>> perfected that you turn your attention to other "niceties"
>>>>> like appearance, user constraints, etc.
>>>>
>>>> It's usually after you get married when that transformation happens :-)
>>>
>>> I've heard that when you are young(er), you want possessions;
>>> when older, "experiences".
>>
>> And often just pain relief. Like I right now, horrible toothache. Of
>> course, per Murphy that set in on a Friday night.
>
> Sorry. I went through a similar experience recently. I recall
> making the "calculations" as to whether I should seek care or
> risk the weekend, etc. (here, dentists don't work on fridays
> either! so, it's *three* days to reconsider your decision!)
>
I decided to pay the hefty weekend/holiday surcharge. Still some pain
but hoping it'll go away. Anesthesia doesn't work well on me, he could
not get me numb enough back there with the legal limit on injections. So
he could not go as deep as hoped or I would have jumped out of the chair
from pain :-(
>>> The idea of an eReader turns my stomach. But, I will concede
>>> this if it gives me a way to shed a few tons of paper! :-(
>>
>> Same here, but I don't want to pay twice for the books I already own. So
>> I don't have any e-readers (yet). And I certainly won't buy one with
>> vendor lock.
>
> Agreed. What happens when your device is "full"? Buy another?
> Discard something to make room for a new addition?
>
> I've just gone with PDF and EPUB formats and use a regular PC
> (a tablet in this case) to view the documents. Not as pleasant
> a reading experience as taking a book out to the back yard.
> But, if it lets me discard a whole lot of paper...
>
> Unfortunately, many of the titles just aren't available in
> these formats. And, the idea of cutting the binding off
> textbooks in order to scan their contents seems *sinful*!
There's also another issue: I think if you scan in a book you
technically must keep the original as proof that you own a copy.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
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