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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12731
| From | Don Y <this@isnotme.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels |
| Date | 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700 |
| Organization | Aioe.org NNTP Server |
| Message-ID | <ksufhc$4o7$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink) |
| References | (7 earlier) <b57h5gF4ahrU1@mid.individual.net> <ksn1jb$gda$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5aqkhFq6uqU1@mid.individual.net> <ksplpj$r4o$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5flh4Fr90vU1@mid.individual.net> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Hi Joerg,
On 7/26/2013 9:13 AM, Joerg wrote:
> Don Y wrote:
>>>> The irrigation controller is located in the garage near the
>>>> garage door as it's easy to get out through the wall to the
>>>> valves (well, actually, the valves are distributed all around
>>>> the yard -- front/back/sides -- but this is where I chose to
>>>> bring them all through the wall since it is close to the
>>>> rest of the "water" stuff (future flow meter, valve, master
>>>> irrigation valve, softener, filtration, etc.) -- things that
>>>> are handled by the "water" controller! (i.e., a home may
>>>> or may not have an irrigation system -- but *should* have
>>>> "water"!)
>>>
>>> All in the same utility room here. If anything needs fixing everyone
>>> knows where the stuff is.
>>
>> So, you terminate all your phone, irrigation, security (cameras/alarms),
>> CATV, networking, multimedia, HVAC, etc. stuff in one location? ...
>
> Yes.
Then you have a boatload of cable coming *through* your house
that could have been terminated "where used"? E.g., the
landscape lighting controller is sited just inside the
garage -- and only because she-who-must-be-obeyed doesn't like
the transformers visible on the exterior of the house. No need
to run 4 #12's from the outside wall of the house to someplace
"deep within".
>> ... Your
>> freezer is in one location; why locate the controls for it in another?
>
> The freezer has only internal controls but it is right next to the
> utility panel, in the same room. After the first one died and much of
> the food in it spoiled I thought about running a network high-temp alert
> but so far haven't gotten around to it.
So, you would consider putting "smarts" *at* the freezer and
sending *messages* to some "remote" location instead of running
thermocouple leads to that remote location? But, putting local
smarts at the irrigation controller and sending CONTROL and
STATUS messages to that same remote location is out of the
question?
I.e., this is how I have done everything, here. Put the smarts
where it is most convenient to interface them to the field
wiring; then "talk" to them from "wherever". Including from
the supermarket!
>> Why run raw video to *a* central location when you can process it *at*
>> the camera and ship what you need (in whatever format you need it) to
>> wherever it needs to go (displays, recorders, etc.). ...
>
> Because re-routing stuff is a breeze when you have home runs. If you
> don't then it could mean cracking out the hammer drill, making a mess,
> dust, work, blisters.
I don't see how that is the case. You have to run a cable from
a camera to your central location. Perhaps RS170 down a long
length of coax? How is that any more convenient than processing
the video *at* the camera and shipping a data stream over CAT5
to wherever you want it consumed?
>> ... Likewise, why
>> have a dozen or more "heavy" (relatively speaking) wires running to
>> irrigation valves *through* some portion of the house interior when
>> you know all the valves will be located *outside*?
>
> Because central control is, to me, essential when it comes to such
> things. Heavy? A normal solenoid doesn't even take 0.25A. I've used
> doubled-up CAT5 for that because that only came in 1000ft drums.
But you are assuming central control has to be PHYSICALLY centralized.
You don't run the wires from the pump for your swimming pool into
that same room, do you? Nor the temperature sensor for it *just*
so all of the wires are in one central location!
Rather, you put the pump and power that it requires where it makes
sense FOR THE PUMP (you don't want to run pipe all around your property
just so you can locate the pump somewhere "central"). You make the
control *of* the pump (and pool temperature) available where *that*
is convenient. Perhaps out *by* the pool, in a veranda, etc.
Or, in my case, wherever I can send datagrams to my control
system (i.e., damn near anywhere).
>> Just seems like concentrating too much stuff with no real gain.
>> (unless you need to work on the phones *and* the irrigation
>> system at the same time?).
>
> Example: Some day you want to control the irrigation from your phone or
> via your LAN. With a central closet all you have to build is a board.
> Without that it means the hammer drill, dust, noise, sweat ...
Thats what I am doing *now*. Because the irrigation system can
talk IP to the rest of the automation system I can command it
from <wherever>. My armchair in the living room. While sitting
on The Throne. Or, while driving to the store. I don't care
that the wires that connect to the solenoid valves are terminated
in a small box on the wall just inside the garage door; or in a
central utility closet. As long as I can talk to that box
over IP, I can command it to do what I want, when/*as* I want.
(E.g., second generation of this will be wireless. Put your
controllers wherever you can get at power and forget about them.
No need to string cable through the rafters, etc.)
>> Most of the time (by a wide margin), you're interacting with the
>> user interface for these things. E.g., changing the criteria
>> that determines when the hot water heater is required to have
>> "ample hot water" available. *Not* rewiring the controls *into*
>> the hot water heater! You're comfortable with your hot water
>> heater in one location and television in another... so why the
>> desire to have the "controls" for them in the same place?
>
> Say you want to conserve energy. If you really want to push it and lower
> the water heater temps a lot you may have to ramp it up and back down
> about once a week. To prevent legionaires disease. Ideally this should
> happen when hot water is likely not used but, say, one person in the
> household is on revolving-time shifts at work. The peaker time thus has
> to be changed a lot. If you have no central control this would be a real
> pain.
I can do exactly that. But, without "central WIRING"! Send a
datagram to the water heater telling it to alter its setpoint
temperature to <X>. Then, some time later, tell it to alter
it to <Y>. But, why should *I* have to tell it? An *algorithm*
can tell it these things based on "rules" and observations of
the hot water usage patterns of the occupants of the building!
But, this doesn't require the wires and controls all be centrally
located. Just that they "come together" in some virtual space
at a point where <whatever> (i.e., me or "an algorithm") can
access them.
>>>> Media gets served from a set of processors in a closet
>>>> off the kitchen (since I need rotating media, there, and
>>>> places like "in the ceiling" or "in the garage" would not
>>>> be appropriate.
>>>
>>> Over here media gets played where the media gear is, from the living
>>> room. But you don't have to watch the movie there, it gets transmitted
>>> over coax back to the utility closet and then into the main
>>> distribution. Of course with an iso amp so things won't pipe out of the
>>> antenna.
>>
>> The RG6 (and "CAT1" -- even though it's really CAT5) here are for
>> "future owners" who will resort to more conventional media/comms
>> systems. I.e., I only use three of the RG6 feeds (one from the cable
>> company, one from rooftop TV antenna, and one from "FM" antenna
>> hidden up in the ceiling) and *none* of the RG6 "drops". The feeds
>> run into the closet where the signal is peeled off and rebroadcast
>> "over IP" (radio programs, TV shows, etc.).
>>
>> My goal is to distribute *everything* "over IP". I've done this
>> for audio, already (though I haven't been able to find an affordable
>> AM/FM radio "box"). I expect video to be a bit more taxing
>> (designing a good codec with the same sorts of capabilities as the
>> audio system). I'm currently in the market for a good dual FXS/FXO
>> interface (prefering a standalone ATA-style device instead of something
>> that relies on some obsolescent "board" interface)
>
> That is quite futursitic but it sounds expensive to transfer everything
> to IP.
Think about it: you need some field interface to all these sensors
and controls/actuators. I.e., a single chip microprocessor. And,
a way of talking with that MCU to exchange status and command
messages -- some sort of serial communication protocol (e.g. ethernet).
Instead of putting ALL the I/O's on a single processor and having that
processor "do everything", put the I/O's on *several* processors
and distribute the responsibilities among them. Then, let them
all talk to <something> -- including each other! -- to get
directions as to *what* they should be doing.
Now, instead of running all that field wiring to a central location,
all you need to do is run it to a "convenient point". Or, a *set* of
convenient points!
I.e., terminate the irrigation valves *here*; the landscape lighting
*there*; the garage door opener somewhere *else*; etc. Then, just
bring their "communication interfaces" to a "central" point -- even
if that point varies over time! ("Now I am in the living room
wanting to control something; oops! I've walked into the kitchen
and still want to control that thing!")
Given that you can (conceivably) do the communications wirelessly
(I see lots of downside risk in that approach which is why I haven't
gone that route, initially), you could put little black boxes all
over the place and never have to worry about pulling cables "inside".
[Early on, I had considered designing the irrigation controller as
a bunch of "one valve" controllers scattered, physically, around
the property. So, instead of running cable to their solenoids
from a controller, I would run power+data to their *controllers*
which were located adjacent to each individual valve! But, the
idea of having 16 little PCB's *buried* around the yard just
felt "wrong"... OTOH, I think when someone comes up with an
economical, rugged "moisture sensor" suitable for below grade
use, there will be a market for lots of "smart valves" that sit
on the water distribution line and service one or two plants
individually with "local" control! "Made in China"]
>> But, in both cases, the "media" is sourced from the lower 18" of this
>> "closet". I have a dual OTA DTV receiver (media pump) so I can
>> source two OTA broadcasts simultaneously (route one to a live
>> display and the other to a DVR; or both to live displays; or both
>> to DVRs, etc.). I need to purchase a second one since I think
>> you need to be able to access 4 "programs" concurrently in a house
>> of 4 people (sad! but, easy to see two being watched simultaneously
>> and possibly recording another for later viewing: "Dad, Betsy won't
>> let me record my TV show cuz she's recording some stupid sitcom
>> that she's already seen!").
>>
>> "Consuming" the media happens wherever you have a suitable "player".
>> E.g., you can listen to a telephone call on a "network speaker"
>> or (eventually) route it through whatever you are using to listen
>> to a television program, etc. Of course, you can record it just
>> as easily. Want to pull weeds while listening to the TV news?
>> Just pop a BT earpiece in your ear...
>
> You just brought up a perfect argument for a centralized wiring closet :-)
No. All you need in that closet is the media server and however
many pipes it needs to push enough media into your network!
Here, I collocated the main processors (which include those that
actually serve up the media), network switch/router and UPS in
that location. But, the rest of the bits of kit (irrigation,
security, etc.) are scattered around wherever it makes most sense
for them. E.g., the processors that monitor the video feeds are
located up in the eaves, adjacent to their individual cameras.
If the doorbell rings, I can "see" who is at the door without
getting up from my office chair. Or, from the living room couch.
Or, meal prep in the kitchen. Just as easily as I can watch
a movie, etc.
[Note I have't yet designed the video subsystem as there's a fair
bit of BFM there!]
>> If you mean "user interface", in that case, it's wherever you want
>> it to be. I.e., I can alter the heat/cooling while I am working on
>> one of the cars out in the garage (even though the garage currently
>> has no HVAC capabilities). Or, while pulling weeds in the back yard.
>> Or, while driving home from the Dentist. I've even got a very long
>> range *cordless* phone so I can wander the neighborhood and still
>> be "in touch" with the house (I don't use cell phones).
>>
>> That was the whole point of this -- to tie the controls to the
>> *user* instead of "a spot on a wall" or "a panel in the garage".
>> And, to then let the definition of "user" evolve (e.g., autonomous
>> agents).
>
> To me the wiring closet is what makes this easy. I have no ambitions to
> peel off signals and such (well, with minor exceptions) but if I ever
> needed to then our home-run structure would make this as easy as it gets.
If you can afford the space, great! I would *love* to have a closet
(or *room*!) to set aside for automation. Stash all the network
printers in there, the various servers I use for work, etc. Instead
of being relegated to the lower 18" of this silly closet. But,
moving *just* to get a "server room" seems a bit presumptuous! :>
>>>> Here, garage is a death sentence for all things electronic. Even
>>>> with our insulated door it still gets pretty warm in there!
>>>> (before the new door, it would easily hit 140)
>>>
>>> Then the electronics isn't designed right. After all, garage door
>>> openers are full of electronics and they have to live in the nastiest
>>> area of a garage, under the ceiling. The cars also have to reside in the
>>> garage and nowadays they are chockfull of elecrtronic gizmos, most of
>>> them highly unnecessary.
>>
>> You know industrial grade components cost more than commercial
>> grade. Why *pay* for something designed to be able to tolerate
>> the heat (and North Dakota cold!) of the garage when it doesn't
>> *have* to sit out there? Do you think your PC will fare well in
>> the garage -- while IN USE?
>
> A good one does. Here in the office it was 91F yesterday and the main PC
> was running heavy duty SPICE simulations.
90 degrees isn't particularly taxing. It's probably almost that in
my office (poor ventilation and several servers running at once).
I think google's "cold aisle" is claimed to be 80F.
But, Ma & Pa Consumer probably would be annoyed if they had to
replace the "media store" on their multimedia server every year
because it couldn't handle the 140 degrees in the garage
("How do we recover all the stuff we had on the drive before it
died? We had videos of our 50th wedding anniversary with the
grandkids...")
>> You want to be able to down-spec as many components as possible
>> to keep things affordable (I'm already in the multiple kilobucks
>> ballpark, here -- for just the electronics!). If you have
>> to specify multiterabyte solid state disks (to store media!)
>> rated for industrial temperature extremes instead of off-the-shelf
>> *commercial* magnetic disks of similar capacity there's a huge
>> cost penalty. And, longer down-times when you can't just walk
>> to your local discount store and buy a replacement!
>
> I rather buy less in toys and not down-spec.
If you want to be able to control "everything", there is a certain
"price of admission". :<
>> [OK, so maybe *you* will have to DRIVE! :> ]
>>
>> The bits of kit that I locate "in ceilings", etc. are designed
>> to handle the environments they are in. But, nothing more.
>> If it ever climbs to 100C inside my ceiling, the $15 board I've
>> got tucked up there is going to be the *least* of my worries!
>> ("Don, why is there *steam* coming out of the ceiling?")
>
> "Don, why is there a fire engine in our driveway?" :-)
Yeah, I am already imagining what things will be like when
manufacturers start selling products with these sorts of
capabilities. And, users start downloading apps of dubious
quality to *run* their automation...
"Why is my hot water heater set at 190F?"
"Why is all the meat in the freezer thawed?"
"Who left the garage door open?"
"Ack! The roses are sitting in 6 inches of standing water!"
"How did Bob, next door, manage to see me in the shower?"
etc.
>>>> I keep debating running "air" into the store room in the
>>>> garage and moving the doorway to open into the interior of
>>>> the house (instead of into the garage). That's a fairly
>>>> large space that would be a great home for the freezer
>>>> (currently in the garage!), my larger printers, plotter,
>>>> etc. But... <shrug>
>>>
>>> Freezer in the garage? That is tough on its compressor.
>>
>> Yup. But, we don't have much of an option in that regard.
>> Insulated garage door makes a big difference (and, the fact
>> that the compressor hugs the floor and not the ceiling).
>> House is very "open". Translation: not many places to *hide*
>> things! :<
>
> Then you need the super-expensive art deco sub-zero fridge freezer combo :-)
No, the fridge/freezer/WIRING CLOSET combo! Complete with the optional
shoe storage accessory!! :-/
>> And, I'd *kill* for a basement!
>
> Oh, same here. We are on a slope so the one downstairs room is mostly
So, a "walk out 'basement'" (even if it isn't really a basement
per se)?
It's just insane that they *don't* build below grade here (AZ).
Especially considering the heat in Summer. Cooling load would be
absolutely non-existent!
But, I guess you could make the same argument for "up north"
with respect to "heating load" in winter.
Bottom line: they don't do it because it's cheaper NOT to!
> cool. Into the hillside we have said utility closet and also a small
> wine storage. But it's nothing compared to the basement we had in Germany.
In New England, Midwest, Colorado, etc. I always had a basement.
Something you simply took for granted. NOT having one really
changes how you deal with "storage".
E.g., I would store my archives in the basement, previously.
Cool, dry, dark... out-of-the-way. Here, they have to hide
under a bed, etc.
>>>> I have another friend with a small rack in his *bedroom*!
>>>> Dunno what the appeal of that is supposed to be... <frown>
>>>
>>> Strange. It's usually considered uncool to show so much nerdiness. It
>>> turns off potential girlfriends. Unless he is already married :-)
>>
>> <shrug> I think, in his case, he's more interested in the
>> functionality than the appearance. ...
>
> A bachelor, I suppose.
Actually, he is. Though I suspect he would like to change that.
"At least on the weekends..." ;-)
>> Early in my career, I worried almost exclusively about how well
>> things *worked* without regard for what they looked like (I have
>> many prototypes fabricated "on a wooden plank" or "in a wooden
>> enclosure"). I think its only after you get that skill-set
>> perfected that you turn your attention to other "niceties"
>> like appearance, user constraints, etc.
>
> It's usually after you get married when that transformation happens :-)
I've heard that when you are young(er), you want possessions;
when older, "experiences".
<shrug>
In my case, I just want "less hassles". I.e., I want products to
work as advertised (ideally, as *expected*!) and not break down
regularly (I suspect I can't go more than two weeks without
having to fix *something*... toilet, car, computer, TV, etc.)
Maybe hermits/minimalists have the right idea? :-/
>> Mine stands about 5 ft tall and I've located a workstation atop
>> it that I use while standing (usually for things like starting a
>> backup, etc.)
>
> Wow! You have this many books that you must catalog them in a 5ft card
> cabinet? We (or rather my wife) have ordered them by topic/genre and
> then selected a location for each throughout the house.
No. The card catalog actually holds audio cassettes. :>
The drawers are *almost* the correct size for 25 cassettes
per drawer -- with a little slop on the side to make it
easy to remove them individually.
I've been "on a campaign" to discard books -- despite my fondness
for them. They just take up too much space! E.g., when I moved
here, I had 80 "Xerox paper" boxes full of (fiction) paperbacks.
And that doesn't count reference books, text books, technical
literature, magazines, etc. I.e., almost two *tons* of paperbacks!
I've since given most of those away -- cherrypicking two boxes worth
as "must keeps". And, recently turned to the text books and other
references. Similarly, looking for electronic copies of the many
technical articles that I have squirreled away and scanning those
that I can't find on-line.
The idea of an eReader turns my stomach. But, I will concede
this if it gives me a way to shed a few tons of paper! :-(
[I have a pair of old tablet PC's that I may turn into "libraries"...
load all the documents onto them and just leave them on a shelf
*like* eReaders with giant, color screens]
>>>> Mine is getting more and more nervous as the "controls" are
>>>> disappearing. "Why can't I just use change (radio) stations
>>>> like I used to? What do you mean, there soon will be *no*
>>>> remote for the TV??" ...
>>>
>>> Oh yeah, that would not go over too well with my wife either.
>>
>> <shrug> Times change. Weigh the "features" you lose by giving
>> up the conventional remote (of course, make sure you take into
>> account never being able to *find* the damn things! And, grumbling
>> each time the batteries die!) with the features you gain from the
>> new approach. *Then* decide.
>
> I stay with the remotes. They are always in the same drawer or on the
> table and the batteries get changes per checklist once per year. The old
> ones are not tossed but used up in "less critical" gizmos such as
> portable radios.
We are always searching for remotes. Two many gizmos that *need*
remotes located in too many different rooms (I think my office is
the only place that is free of remote controlled devices). The
time and frustration spent trying to locate a remote sort of
counteracts the value of having the remote (esp since we don't
tend to watch much TV, DVD, etc.).
>> I think a lot of it boils down to a sort of reassurance that
>> something physical and tangible gives. The same sort of
>> issue that leads people to develop and maintain *huge*
>> spreadsheets instead of putting the data into a formal
>> database and issuing queries against that (i.e., they feel
>> "reassured" because they can *see* all of the data when it is
>> in a spreadsheet -- even though seeing it doesn't make it any
>> more robust or correct; whereas the raw data is hidden -- unless
>> explicitly called forth -- when you just issue summary queries
>> on a database!)
>
> That's different. Here, everything is in databases. I use spreadsheets
> only as "cheat sheets" when working our circuit designs. Afterwards they
> are mostly retired, sometimes parts of them are re-used later.
Ditto. We track our finances, budget, warranties, etc. as entries
in various databases. Makes it easier to call up the data we need
when we need it. (And, cuts down on the dreaded paper!! :> )
>>> But one needs a remote, nowadays. Having to get out of a chair to
>>> changes stations is so 1950's, and one could pull a muscle :-)
>>
>> Sure. I just don't restrict the "remote" to something as conventional
>> and DEDICATED as "The TV Remote" (or DVD or VCR or STEREO or CATV
>> or...). I.e., where is the HVAC remote? Or, irrigation controller
>> remote? Or, garage door opener (FOR INHOME USE) remote? Why have
>> all these numerous little *specialized* boxes when they are all just
>> *instances* of the same sort of "user interface"! Why have to keep
>> track of them and maintain them? ("Oh, crap! I left the remote
>> for the irrigation controller in the dining room...")
>
> We only use remotes where it makes sense. TV, radio, VCR/DVD combo,
> garage door openers. In the winter also for Christmas lights. That's
> pretty much it. I suppose one can pool all that into a smart phone app
> but since we don't have smart phones that won't work.
I conceded the (wall mounted) control panels to her so she has a
place to go to "do things" (interact with the automation: change
the temperature in the house, alter the watering criteria for the
yard, check the outdoor temperature/humidity/rainfall, etc.)
The other things will be controlled by speech and/or a *worn* (lapel)
"gesture panel". I figure it is something that "you'll get used to"
over time. Just like it took time to get used to NOT having to get
up to change TV channels; not having to press the clutch to shift;
etc.
[And, a good part of this is to see what is *wrong* with various
user interfaces for this sort of use!]
>> Here, the phone and CATV wiring are a concession to future homeowners.
>> I see no need for any of them in the years to come. But, I don't
>> care to argue that point with a prospective home buyer. "You want
>> a phone jack in every room? Fine. Oh, you want a CATV drop as well?
>> Sure. Welcome BACK to the 20th century."
>
> Well, got to do that. Not everyone wants to live like the Jetsons :-)
Yup. And I have no desire to leave the automation in place for
a future homeowner (not because of its value but, rather, because of
its potential liability!).
E.g., there is no thermostat in the hallway. *But*, there is a wire
*for* one buried in the wall that terminates at the furnace so that
I can install a conventional heating/cooling thermostat when that
time comes!
[DIY stuff]
>> This year, they replaced the gas *mains* in the neighborhood. Again,
>> without digging up the streets. (This was actually REALLY amazing!)
>> When you look at the "solutions" they've employed, it gives you a
>> better understanding of where the cost issues are in these problem
>> domains. Things that you might not have considered, otherwise. Or,
>> may have *mis*diagnosed in your ignorance.
>
> I do this kind of thinking all the time, comes with my job. The EE stuff
> is only to solve a problem from a different world. Aerospace,
> industrial, medical, whatever. Got to wear many hats as a consultant.
Yup. And, if you are like me, you seek out *new* application
domains instead of sitting in a single "comfort spot" year after
year. I.e., "always learning", experiencing new things, etc.
>> Unfortunately, I fabricated all of the (irrigation) valve manifolds
>> out of galvanized. I will have to recreate them in copper when I
>> have some spare time. <frown> Thankfully, they are each small
>> projects (four sets of three valves -- the rest are singletons)
>> so I can tackle them without having to shut down the system for
>> a prolonged period of time.
>
> I did mine with PVC pipe. Much faster and much easier to reconfigure if
> you ever need another tap.
I don't like PVC because you have to cut it and patch it to make
changes. I (mistakenly) thought the 3/4" galvanized would be a lot
more "future safe". (It also allowed me to "float" the valves
*above* the concrete slabs I poured *under* each manifold as the
pipe has a fair bit of weight to it and structural rigidity)
I just didn't realize how piss-poor the galvanized held up with
age! :<
No problem. Some 3/4" 'L' grade pipe and a few hours with a torch
and they'll be replaced. Just annoying not to have foreknowledge of
this information :( I really *hate* having to do things over!
Especially when *I* was teh one who decided how to (wrongly!) do
it in the first place! Too little time to get the things done that
NEED to be done to be wasting time doing things over!
<frown> Ah, well... "perfection" is a goal, not a state! :>
--don
Back to comp.arch.embedded | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
csiph-web