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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12723
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels |
| Date | 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700 |
| Organization | Consultant |
| Message-ID | <b5flh4Fr90vU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <ksknl5$c7c$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b57h5gF4ahrU1@mid.individual.net> <ksn1jb$gda$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5aqkhFq6uqU1@mid.individual.net> <ksplpj$r4o$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Don Y wrote:
> Hi Joerg,
>
> On 7/24/2013 1:09 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
[...]
>>> The irrigation controller is located in the garage near the
>>> garage door as it's easy to get out through the wall to the
>>> valves (well, actually, the valves are distributed all around
>>> the yard -- front/back/sides -- but this is where I chose to
>>> bring them all through the wall since it is close to the
>>> rest of the "water" stuff (future flow meter, valve, master
>>> irrigation valve, softener, filtration, etc.) -- things that
>>> are handled by the "water" controller! (i.e., a home may
>>> or may not have an irrigation system -- but *should* have
>>> "water"!)
>>
>> All in the same utility room here. If anything needs fixing everyone
>> knows where the stuff is.
>
> So, you terminate all your phone, irrigation, security (cameras/alarms),
> CATV, networking, multimedia, HVAC, etc. stuff in one location? ...
Yes.
> ... Your
> freezer is in one location; why locate the controls for it in another?
The freezer has only internal controls but it is right next to the
utility panel, in the same room. After the first one died and much of
the food in it spoiled I thought about running a network high-temp alert
but so far haven't gotten around to it.
> Why run raw video to *a* central location when you can process it *at*
> the camera and ship what you need (in whatever format you need it) to
> wherever it needs to go (displays, recorders, etc.). ...
Because re-routing stuff is a breeze when you have home runs. If you
don't then it could mean cracking out the hammer drill, making a mess,
dust, work, blisters.
> ... Likewise, why
> have a dozen or more "heavy" (relatively speaking) wires running to
> irrigation valves *through* some portion of the house interior when
> you know all the valves will be located *outside*?
>
Because central control is, to me, essential when it comes to such
things. Heavy? A normal solenoid doesn't even take 0.25A. I've used
doubled-up CAT5 for that because that only came in 1000ft drums.
> Just seems like concentrating too much stuff with no real gain.
> (unless you need to work on the phones *and* the irrigation
> system at the same time?).
>
Example: Some day you want to control the irrigation from your phone or
via your LAN. With a central closet all you have to build is a board.
Without that it means the hammer drill, dust, noise, sweat ...
> Most of the time (by a wide margin), you're interacting with the
> user interface for these things. E.g., changing the criteria
> that determines when the hot water heater is required to have
> "ample hot water" available. *Not* rewiring the controls *into*
> the hot water heater! You're comfortable with your hot water
> heater in one location and television in another... so why the
> desire to have the "controls" for them in the same place?
>
Say you want to conserve energy. If you really want to push it and lower
the water heater temps a lot you may have to ramp it up and back down
about once a week. To prevent legionaires disease. Ideally this should
happen when hot water is likely not used but, say, one person in the
household is on revolving-time shifts at work. The peaker time thus has
to be changed a lot. If you have no central control this would be a real
pain.
>>> The HVAC controller is located in with the furnace (d'uh!)
>>> as that's a convenient place to get at the wiring for the
>>> swamp cooler, furnace, ac compressor and "thermostat"
>>> (temperature sensor). Since every home needs one *and*
>>> every home needs a doorbell (?), that controller also
>>> monitors the various doorbell (buttons) and drives a pair
>>> of speakers in the ceiling in two different parts of the
>>> house. Since AC power is readily available, there, I
>>> can spend a fair bit of power "making noise" when someone
>>> comes to one of the doors (front/side/back/garage/driveway).
>>>
>>> Media gets served from a set of processors in a closet
>>> off the kitchen (since I need rotating media, there, and
>>> places like "in the ceiling" or "in the garage" would not
>>> be appropriate.
>>
>> Over here media gets played where the media gear is, from the living
>> room. But you don't have to watch the movie there, it gets transmitted
>> over coax back to the utility closet and then into the main
>> distribution. Of course with an iso amp so things won't pipe out of the
>> antenna.
>
> The RG6 (and "CAT1" -- even though it's really CAT5) here are for
> "future owners" who will resort to more conventional media/comms
> systems. I.e., I only use three of the RG6 feeds (one from the cable
> company, one from rooftop TV antenna, and one from "FM" antenna
> hidden up in the ceiling) and *none* of the RG6 "drops". The feeds
> run into the closet where the signal is peeled off and rebroadcast
> "over IP" (radio programs, TV shows, etc.).
>
> My goal is to distribute *everything* "over IP". I've done this
> for audio, already (though I haven't been able to find an affordable
> AM/FM radio "box"). I expect video to be a bit more taxing
> (designing a good codec with the same sorts of capabilities as the
> audio system). I'm currently in the market for a good dual FXS/FXO
> interface (prefering a standalone ATA-style device instead of something
> that relies on some obsolescent "board" interface)
>
That is quite futursitic but it sounds expensive to transfer everything
to IP.
> But, in both cases, the "media" is sourced from the lower 18" of this
> "closet". I have a dual OTA DTV receiver (media pump) so I can
> source two OTA broadcasts simultaneously (route one to a live
> display and the other to a DVR; or both to live displays; or both
> to DVRs, etc.). I need to purchase a second one since I think
> you need to be able to access 4 "programs" concurrently in a house
> of 4 people (sad! but, easy to see two being watched simultaneously
> and possibly recording another for later viewing: "Dad, Betsy won't
> let me record my TV show cuz she's recording some stupid sitcom
> that she's already seen!").
>
> "Consuming" the media happens wherever you have a suitable "player".
> E.g., you can listen to a telephone call on a "network speaker"
> or (eventually) route it through whatever you are using to listen
> to a television program, etc. Of course, you can record it just
> as easily. Want to pull weeds while listening to the TV news?
> Just pop a BT earpiece in your ear...
>
You just brought up a perfect argument for a centralized wiring closet :-)
>>> All of these are integral parts of the automation system
>>> so none of them has a user interface, etc. I.e., no silly
>>> thermostats, doorbells, etc. hanging off walls in hallways, etc.
>>
>> I want the thermostat or control where the action is. In our case both
>> the swamp cooler and the central HVAC are controlled from the living
>> room.
>
> If you mean "user interface", in that case, it's wherever you want
> it to be. I.e., I can alter the heat/cooling while I am working on
> one of the cars out in the garage (even though the garage currently
> has no HVAC capabilities). Or, while pulling weeds in the back yard.
> Or, while driving home from the Dentist. I've even got a very long
> range *cordless* phone so I can wander the neighborhood and still
> be "in touch" with the house (I don't use cell phones).
>
> That was the whole point of this -- to tie the controls to the
> *user* instead of "a spot on a wall" or "a panel in the garage".
> And, to then let the definition of "user" evolve (e.g., autonomous
> agents).
>
To me the wiring closet is what makes this easy. I have no ambitions to
peel off signals and such (well, with minor exceptions) but if I ever
needed to then our home-run structure would make this as easy as it gets.
>>> Here, garage is a death sentence for all things electronic. Even
>>> with our insulated door it still gets pretty warm in there!
>>> (before the new door, it would easily hit 140)
>>
>> Then the electronics isn't designed right. After all, garage door
>> openers are full of electronics and they have to live in the nastiest
>> area of a garage, under the ceiling. The cars also have to reside in the
>> garage and nowadays they are chockfull of elecrtronic gizmos, most of
>> them highly unnecessary.
>
> You know industrial grade components cost more than commercial
> grade. Why *pay* for something designed to be able to tolerate
> the heat (and North Dakota cold!) of the garage when it doesn't
> *have* to sit out there? Do you think your PC will fare well in
> the garage -- while IN USE?
>
A good one does. Here in the office it was 91F yesterday and the main PC
was running heavy duty SPICE simulations.
> You want to be able to down-spec as many components as possible
> to keep things affordable (I'm already in the multiple kilobucks
> ballpark, here -- for just the electronics!). If you have
> to specify multiterabyte solid state disks (to store media!)
> rated for industrial temperature extremes instead of off-the-shelf
> *commercial* magnetic disks of similar capacity there's a huge
> cost penalty. And, longer down-times when you can't just walk
> to your local discount store and buy a replacement!
>
I rather buy less in toys and not down-spec.
> [OK, so maybe *you* will have to DRIVE! :> ]
>
> The bits of kit that I locate "in ceilings", etc. are designed
> to handle the environments they are in. But, nothing more.
> If it ever climbs to 100C inside my ceiling, the $15 board I've
> got tucked up there is going to be the *least* of my worries!
> ("Don, why is there *steam* coming out of the ceiling?")
>
"Don, why is there a fire engine in our driveway?" :-)
>>> I keep debating running "air" into the store room in the
>>> garage and moving the doorway to open into the interior of
>>> the house (instead of into the garage). That's a fairly
>>> large space that would be a great home for the freezer
>>> (currently in the garage!), my larger printers, plotter,
>>> etc. But... <shrug>
>>
>> Freezer in the garage? That is tough on its compressor.
>
> Yup. But, we don't have much of an option in that regard.
> Insulated garage door makes a big difference (and, the fact
> that the compressor hugs the floor and not the ceiling).
> House is very "open". Translation: not many places to *hide*
> things! :<
>
Then you need the super-expensive art deco sub-zero fridge freezer combo :-)
> And, I'd *kill* for a basement!
>
Oh, same here. We are on a slope so the one downstairs room is mostly
cool. Into the hillside we have said utility closet and also a small
wine storage. But it's nothing compared to the basement we had in Germany.
>> So yeah, it
>> would make sense to change that. But it's probably as high as on the
>> priority list as painting the pool house is here.
>>
>>>>> I'd like to come up with a "solution" that lets folks figure out
>>>>> how best to package/deploy their own version instead of imposing
>>>>> a solution. You want to use an equipment rack? Fine! *You*
>>>>> figure out where to put it... (I have a friend with one of these
>>>>> 5,000sq ft palaces that *likes* making his toys visible. He'd
>>>>> probably set it in a 42U rack with glass doors sitting in a
>>>>> corner of his living room! "Conversation Piece" :-/ Sheesh!)
>>>>
>>>> With smoked glass doors and mood lighting :-)
>>>
>>> I have another friend with a small rack in his *bedroom*!
>>> Dunno what the appeal of that is supposed to be... <frown>
>>
>> Strange. It's usually considered uncool to show so much nerdiness. It
>> turns off potential girlfriends. Unless he is already married :-)
>
> <shrug> I think, in his case, he's more interested in the
> functionality than the appearance. ...
A bachelor, I suppose.
> ... And, he enjoys "tinkering"
> with it. My goal is more a "set and forget" use. I don't like
> being a slave to my possessions -- despite all the effort I am
> expending towards that goal! :-/
>
> Early in my career, I worried almost exclusively about how well
> things *worked* without regard for what they looked like (I have
> many prototypes fabricated "on a wooden plank" or "in a wooden
> enclosure"). I think its only after you get that skill-set
> perfected that you turn your attention to other "niceties"
> like appearance, user constraints, etc.
>
It's usually after you get married when that transformation happens :-)
>>> [Though, having said that, I've thought of replacing the
>>> library card catalog I have ...
>>
>> What is a library card catalog?
>
> Before electronic "card catalogs" (list of the titles a
> library has on hand), each book had an index card describing
> it. These were kept in large, monotonous "drawer units".
> Typically, one organized "by title" and another "by author".
> Usually reasonably nice pieces of carpentry (though out-of-place
> in most residential settings).
>
> Mine stands about 5 ft tall and I've located a workstation atop
> it that I use while standing (usually for things like starting a
> backup, etc.)
>
Wow! You have this many books that you must catalog them in a 5ft card
cabinet? We (or rather my wife) have ordered them by topic/genre and
then selected a location for each throughout the house.
>>>>> The idea of "custom panels" IN GENERAL makes perfect sense (e.g.,
>>>>> the examples you cite). I just don't think many would pursue it
>>>>> for *this* project (which would already be hard to get past your
>>>>> S.O. -- regardless of how many shoes she has!! :> )
>>>>
>>>> Mine was real happy after I installed the system, when I showed her how
>>>> we can now watch a movie anywhere, including outside.
>>>
>>> Mine is getting more and more nervous as the "controls" are
>>> disappearing. "Why can't I just use change (radio) stations
>>> like I used to? What do you mean, there soon will be *no*
>>> remote for the TV??" ...
>>
>> Oh yeah, that would not go over too well with my wife either.
>
> <shrug> Times change. Weigh the "features" you lose by giving
> up the conventional remote (of course, make sure you take into
> account never being able to *find* the damn things! And, grumbling
> each time the batteries die!) with the features you gain from the
> new approach. *Then* decide.
>
I stay with the remotes. They are always in the same drawer or on the
table and the batteries get changes per checklist once per year. The old
ones are not tossed but used up in "less critical" gizmos such as
portable radios.
> [I can undoubtedly design an Ir interface that would allow the
> "old" remotes to continue to work. But, what's the point??]
>
A higher WAF.
> I think a lot of it boils down to a sort of reassurance that
> something physical and tangible gives. The same sort of
> issue that leads people to develop and maintain *huge*
> spreadsheets instead of putting the data into a formal
> database and issuing queries against that (i.e., they feel
> "reassured" because they can *see* all of the data when it is
> in a spreadsheet -- even though seeing it doesn't make it any
> more robust or correct; whereas the raw data is hidden -- unless
> explicitly called forth -- when you just issue summary queries
> on a database!)
>
That's different. Here, everything is in databases. I use spreadsheets
only as "cheat sheets" when working our circuit designs. Afterwards they
are mostly retired, sometimes parts of them are re-used later.
>>> ... As a concession, I had to install three
>>> "control panels" so she can interact with the system in a more
>>> "traditional" manner. I've rationalized this to myself by
>>> locating them in the three places where you would typically want
>>> a quick summary of system status and presenting this visually
>>> would be most efficient: the two primary doors by which we
>>> enter/exit the house and the hallway to the bedrooms (where you
>>> "say good night/morning" to the house).
>>>
>>> [There's also a panel located in the closet that houses the media
>>> servers but that's more of a convenience for *me*... so I can
>>> do maintenance work without having to boot up a PC to "talk"
>>> to the system.]
>>
>> But one needs a remote, nowadays. Having to get out of a chair to
>> changes stations is so 1950's, and one could pull a muscle :-)
>
> Sure. I just don't restrict the "remote" to something as conventional
> and DEDICATED as "The TV Remote" (or DVD or VCR or STEREO or CATV
> or...). I.e., where is the HVAC remote? Or, irrigation controller
> remote? Or, garage door opener (FOR INHOME USE) remote? Why have
> all these numerous little *specialized* boxes when they are all just
> *instances* of the same sort of "user interface"! Why have to keep
> track of them and maintain them? ("Oh, crap! I left the remote
> for the irrigation controller in the dining room...")
>
We only use remotes where it makes sense. TV, radio, VCR/DVD combo,
garage door openers. In the winter also for Christmas lights. That's
pretty much it. I suppose one can pool all that into a smart phone app
but since we don't have smart phones that won't work.
>>> I have two sorts of "connection points" in the house. One type
>>> is dedicated for specific needs. E.g., the drop for the
>>> irrigation controller is *just* a network drop FOR THE IRRIGATION
>>> CONTROLLER.
>>>
>>> The "uncommitted" points in the house (24 of them) each have
>>> a network drop, CATV drop and a POTS drop. So, you can plug in
>>> a laptop, phone or "conventional" (i.e., non-IP) TV in any of
>>> those locations.
>>>
>>> All the POTS drops terminate at a pair of punchdown blocks
>>> mounted on the wall alongside the furnace.
>>
>> To be honest, I haven't completed the 66 blocks. While installing our
>> trusty old Cincinnatti Microwave phone quit and I went to buy a new one.
>> They stopped making these, so I ended up with a large "system pack" full
>> of cordless phones. Made the POTS network I just completed almost
>> irrelevant, nothing much plugs into it.
>
> Here, the phone and CATV wiring are a concession to future homeowners.
> I see no need for any of them in the years to come. But, I don't
> care to argue that point with a prospective home buyer. "You want
> a phone jack in every room? Fine. Oh, you want a CATV drop as well?
> Sure. Welcome BACK to the 20th century."
>
Well, got to do that. Not everyone wants to live like the Jetsons :-)
>>>>> E.g., we've dropped about a kilobuck into *just* the irrigation
>>>>> system -- with none of that spent on "labor" or "profit". We
>>>>> could never have justified what it would have cost to *contract*
>>>>> that job out! If I'd *tried* to contract *this* project out,
>>>>> neither of us would *ever* retire (to enjoy it!) :>
>>>>
>>>> Same here. We just painted the house. It would have cost us around 7k.
>>>> This way it cost about $400 in paint and several Saturdays.
>>>
>>> Yup. Though it's not just "saving money". I find these sorts
>>> of "puzzles" to help keep my thinking "pliable" since the
>>> sorts of constraints that you face are very different than
>>> the "9 to 5" sorts.
>>
>> It also keeps one appreciative of folks doing non-engineering jobs.
>
> I think it also lets you see the sorts of problems others face
> and prompts creative thinking *on* those problems -- even if you
> never attempt to actually solve them!
>
> E.g., in the past few years, they have replaced all the service
> feeds to the homes in the neighborhood from the gas company. It was
> interesting to see how they do this without trenching the whole yard!
> (*every* yard!).
>
> This year, they replaced the gas *mains* in the neighborhood. Again,
> without digging up the streets. (This was actually REALLY amazing!)
> When you look at the "solutions" they've employed, it gives you a
> better understanding of where the cost issues are in these problem
> domains. Things that you might not have considered, otherwise. Or,
> may have *mis*diagnosed in your ignorance.
>
I do this kind of thinking all the time, comes with my job. The EE stuff
is only to solve a problem from a different world. Aerospace,
industrial, medical, whatever. Got to wear many hats as a consultant.
[...]
> Unfortunately, I fabricated all of the (irrigation) valve manifolds
> out of galvanized. I will have to recreate them in copper when I
> have some spare time. <frown> Thankfully, they are each small
> projects (four sets of three valves -- the rest are singletons)
> so I can tackle them without having to shut down the system for
> a prolonged period of time.
>
I did mine with PVC pipe. Much faster and much easier to reconfigure if
you ever need another tap.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
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