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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12861
| From | Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded |
| Subject | Re: Cutting panels |
| Date | 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700 |
| Organization | Consultant |
| Message-ID | <b5qi0oF7475U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (20 earlier) <kt4kio$1fl$1@speranza.aioe.org> <b5npqaFjahiU1@mid.individual.net> <kt6ttv$cfk$2@speranza.aioe.org> <b5og7sFo0h7U1@mid.individual.net> <kt7gdi$luq$1@speranza.aioe.org> |
Cross-posted to 2 groups.
Don Y wrote: > Hi Joerg, > > On 7/29/2013 5:38 PM, Joerg wrote: [...] >> But all your IP "peel-off" boxes are not available commercially. >> Technically I see no major problems but logistically I do. > > Yes, but someone has to start the process! :> It sure isn't > going to be a PLUMBER who does it! > Unless someone barges into the market with loss tenders or super-aggressive pricing it will remain a niche. [...] >>>> But there is nothing available at Home Depot or Lowe's to make that >>>> happen. Consequently it's not happening. >>> >>> Here are intelligent, networkable thermostats offered at Lowes. >>> With suitable changes to their algorithms and the availability >>> of real-time energy consumption data (electric/gas), they >>> could easily manage a large portion of a home's power needs >>> (air conditioning and heating) >>> >>> [forgive teh broken lines... NNTP client complains! Too lazy to >>> "tiny-fy" them :< ] >>> >>> <http://www.lowes.com/pd_86217-22742-T200577_0__?productId=3878572& >>> Ntt=thermostat&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dthermostat&facetInfo=> >> >> 250 bucks for a thermostat? Are they crazy? > > [snip rest of examples as we agree on the insanity of the prices, etc.] > > The "Nest" device is actually pretty sexxy. But, yes, $250 is > ridiculous. Even some of the cheaper units are $150, etc. > They'd have to offer a real starter kit for $99 or so, something that gets people hooked. It has to be able to control stuff that's otherwise difficult to control, such as outdoor lighting. And no forcing into monthly deals. From there on it'll become a self-starter but unfortunately industry does not understand. Think about Malibu lights. Everyone waits for the sale and then buys one or two boxes of 20 each, at $19.95 or sometimes a little more. Those contain the lights, wire and a transformer with a (lousy quality) timer in there. Then people get hooked and come back for more. That fancy flood light for the plum tree, multi-color lights, and so on. Some later get turned off because of the miserable quality of the timers. > They are stuck in that they need to make the device "unique" > (e.g., it has a really slick user interface) so it *looks* > like it is worth that money. They have much smaller quantities > than generic thermostats. And *way* higher costs! (since a > thermostat is a no-brainer to design electromechanically... > even electronically!) > Then they need better engineering teams. I have designed similar stuff and it is not expensive. One has to resist the temptation to make custom LCD displays and stuff, it's not necessary. Keep it simple. > They also have a fair bit of real estate on the store floor > (large display -- ever wonder why breakfast cereal is as > expensive as STEAK??) > > Curiously, there is actually an *advantage* to making the > price higher! "Perception". I.e., folks tend to think > more expensive things are *worth* more. (It also gives > them more leeway to reduce the price over time) > That is guaranteed to fail in HA. And it has for decades. > [I read a couple of texts, recently, that tried to describe > how we perceive value, why we pay what we pay, etc. It was > interesting in that it addressed all sorts of "things" that > we "invest in" -- e.g., religion! And, why religions that > demand a lot from their adherents tend to have more committed > devotees (they've got more *invested*! More reason to *want* > to believe!)] > That only works with a small subset of the population these days. >> Yeah, but this stuff does not cut it. It is not true home automation. > > Remember that thought... :> > >> I have to disagree with you on that. HA to me is something totally >> different. Not super-expensive gear where I can beam a recipe to the >> oven but gear where I can control outdoor lights, media, coffee makers, >> mood lighting, has sensors and so on. > > Exactly. And, more! (below) > >>> I'd much prefer a system that can optimize when it *should* water >>> conditioned by monitoring our activities (i.e., presumably, our >>> needs are more important -- why should we have to change our >>> schedules to accommodate plants?) >> >> That requires real HA, not just the gizmos. The system would need to >> learn your habits. The sensors are fairly easy but, as usual, >> unobtanium. For example, a water meter link or flow sensor can provide >> enough information to figure out "Oh, someone is taking a shower". > > Ah, gwasshoppa... now you see! :> Hence the task I have set for > myself! > > It's too "broad" for an appliance/device manufacturer. ... Then they should leave the biz and maybe start mass-producing muffins or something :-) > ... Dealing > with security devices, HVAC, electric/gas/water utilities, > household appliances, etc. And, to be done effectively, requires > a pretty high level of "instrumentation saturation" -- you can't > just automate the lighting, etc. ... Sure you can. I have done it here but all I had available was the crummy and unreliable X10 "system". It did all I wanted from it but the modules fell apart, comms broke down, et cetera. It's easy, if the hardware and the protocol would not be so poor. > ... So, "customers" need to make > a significant commitment -- *or* the hooks have to already > be IN PLACE for all these things. I.e., an interface that's > already present on each of your appliances, control systems, > etc. just WAITING to be used. > Nah. Start with outdoor lighting. Then indoor lighting, then include the furnace, then offer an Internet link, and by that time you'll be in business. Because people "must have" it. > And, for a "tinkerer", it requires a wide knowledge/experience > base. Hardware design (analog and digital interfaces to sensors > and actuators), software design (OS's, comms, applications, etc.), > a feel for what the user is likely to accept as an interface, > a sense for cost and packaging (since you won't be building it > out of discarded PC's), etc. > > So, there is a huge startup cost, up front. Intimidating to most > folks busy in a 9-to-5. > > OTOH, once a framework is available and demonstrably running, > relatively easy for folks to tinker around the edges. > > "I designed an interface for a GE Model F1234 refrigerator." > "I wrote a driver for a Bosch G4433 dishwasher." > "I wrote an app that talks to the generic 'furnace' interface > and controls indoor temperature" > "I've added support for the Latvian language" > > Most folks can't "create". But, are very adept at tweeking > an existing/proven design to make it do something else (or > *better*!) > > But, they have to have someplace from which to start! > Right, and that's hardware. All one has to do is this: Take all the X10 stuff, develop a transmission protocol that works, then develop the hardware in a more reliable fashion. Run through UL. That's it. Now offer through Amazon, Home Depot, Lowe's and later maybe Costco, Sam's Club, Walmart. >>> Similarly, plugging a 100W lamp into a "lamp module" implicitly >>> tells you that every moment it is on consumes 100W. >> >> That's not it. One must monitor the whole house and deduce from >> consumption patterns what is what. Like what does it look like when >> someone takes a shower? What does it look like if a pizza is baked in >> the oven? Those are heavy-hitters in consumption. > > Exactly. Turning appliances on and off from your smartphone > is just an expensive version of 1970's technology (I had an aunt > who could turn any light in her home on/off from her bed -- and > the system was installed in 1950! But, in the living room, she > could only turn on the living room light! :< ) > > Until you have a framework in place, you can't begin to come up > with the myriad different "things" it can do for you! > You don't need the whole enchilada from the start. For example, if you only had up-to-the-minute TOU pricing info, a decent meter feedback in realtime, and a friendly TOU tariff, that gets it started. If the utility won't play, start with outdoor lighting, sprinklers, pool pumps. > (Instead of just streaming live video from the front doorway to > a TV monitor, why not recognize the face: "Bob is at the front > door. Do you want him to know you are home? Or, should I > just tell him no one is here and he can leave a video message > for you?" Or, maybe even let him *in* to pick up something > that you have left for him -- but if he shows up at any > other time, he's treated like a generic visitor) > Most people (like us) wouldn't care. We just go and look. If a sales dude we tell him "not interested", else it's "Hey, want to have a beer?". We are also not screening our phone calls. >>> Here, solar has taken a good foothold. In addition to all the >>> "solar pool heaters" (very old technology), I'm sure there are >>> at least 5000 sq ft of PV's within a block of our house. >>> (and those are all residential installs). >> >> Not sure where you live. Last time I flew to San Diego (few weeks ago) I >> scanned the neighborhoods from above. I was very surprised how little >> there was in solar installations. There were whole blocks where nobody >> had solar. > > So. AZ. A modest, middle-class neighborhood. Nothing excessive. > I am really surprised at how much solar I see! It seems like it > would be too soon to iron out the bugs. > Maybe you politicos were smarter and there is a good feed-in deal? > (One of the neighbors has a large, *planar* array -- i.e., not > "staggered" like sawteeth. Of course, the north edge is the > "high side". Probably at least a 10 ft rise. Which means > he's got a 20ft wide, many hundred square foot *sail* ready > to catch the microbursts that blow in from the NORTH! :-/ > It will be interesting to see if the array survives. *And*, > if it peels the roof off his house in the process!!) > Out here it would be almost guaranteed to peel off. >>> We entertained solar *water* heater but at $5K+ it was a joke! >>> Ditto with on-demand. >>> >>> "And, when the controller board craps out, the *plumber* is >>> going to repair it? Oh, it's going to be a $100 service call >>> and a board swap. So, several hundred dollars -- instead of >>> just purchasing a new *gas/electric* heater every 15 years??" >> >> Yup. If the electronics goes bad they'll likely fleece you unless you >> can find out with a sharp eye that it's a particular electrolytic that >> went bad. Or in my recent case an inadequately cooled linear regulator >> went phut. > > Exactly. It's like having an auto mechanic servicing your > refrigerator. WTF?? > They do not service electronics, they usually keep replacing until something sticks. On your nickel. >>> E.g., I have a small PV panel that I use to keep a small bank >>> of car batteries topped off in the garage. They run a pump >>> that I use to harvest rainwater (silly to pay for electricity >>> to conserve water!). And, I have a 1500VA inverter nearby so >>> I have a decent source of power (lighting, etc.) in the event of >>> a prolonged outage (without having to buy more expensive >>> batteries suitable for use indoors!) >> >> I thought about that. Harborfreight's 45W panel was down to $150 last >> time I looked. Still a bit high. > > I salvaged a bunch of tiny panels. Note that I have several days > of sunlight to recharge the battery between rain storms (which is > when I would nominally need the pump). The inverter is just gravy > for those times when it *won't* be raining (i.e., 90% of the year!) > Where do you get salvaged panels? Never seen any here. > (also handy when a car needs a "jump". Since we can expect > batteries to die pretty regularly, here, you have to *plan* > on it! At least they don't die and leave us trapped in the > *snow*! :> ) > Yes, panels are very handy if you can take one along for the ride. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700
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