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Re: Cutting panels

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Hi Joerg,

On 7/26/2013 11:52 PM, Joerg wrote:

>> Given that you can (conceivably) do the communications wirelessly
>> (I see lots of downside risk in that approach which is why I haven't
>> gone that route, initially), you could put little black boxes all
>> over the place and never have to worry about pulling cables "inside".
>
> But what do all those little black boxes cost in terms of money and
> install effort?

For me?  A lot!  But, that's because I can't just go to a store
and *buy* most of them!  E.g., if my hot water heater had a network
connection, then I wouldn't need to design and install something
to control it!

Ditto garage door opener, irrigation system, etc.

OTOH, if we could retroactively *credit* ourselves for devices we
wouldn't have purchased (i.e., assuming said system was already
in place), then the cost would be pretty modest.

Installation costs of a "real" system would probably rely on
wireless comms so you'd plug in a wall wart and forget about it.
(I don't want to address the security issues associated with
wireless -- given that I have so many other problems to tackle!)

> We try to keep it simple in our house. Also, I do not
> want to rely on one system for all. If your LAN goes down you are
> screwed. It could cause plants to die.

No!  The irrigation controller can operate in the absence of the
network and any "central controller".  Ditto with the HVAC
(thermostat), etc.  That's the beauty of putting *smarts* at
each node instead of just "field wiring".

Of course, you can't *change* the irrigation criteria if you
can't talk to the controller (over the LAN).

>> [Early on, I had considered designing the irrigation controller as
>> a bunch of "one valve" controllers scattered, physically, around
>> the property.  So, instead of running cable to their solenoids
>> from a controller, I would run power+data to their *controllers*
>> which were located adjacent to each individual valve!  But, the
>> idea of having 16 little PCB's *buried* around the yard just
>> felt "wrong"...  OTOH, I think when someone comes up with an
>> economical, rugged "moisture sensor" suitable for below grade
>> use, there will be a market for lots of "smart valves" that sit
>> on the water distribution line and service one or two plants
>> individually with "local" control!  "Made in China"]
>
> We are far, far away from that kind of automation. Most of the industry
> is plain dumb when it comes to that. Except for a select few companies
> but those serve higher-end markets.

I think there will be a more in this direction RSN.  There are
already firms touting "control your home from your iPhone"
(for only $60/month).  When appliance manufacturers start
adopting integrated comms as a "standard feature", this will
get easier.

E.g., you see cars with iPod connections built in...

Currently, any attempt to do something like this requires a
"bolt on" product -- invariably more expensive than an integrated
solution!

>>>> But, in both cases, the "media" is sourced from the lower 18" of this
>>>> "closet".  I have a dual OTA DTV receiver (media pump) so I can
>>>> source two OTA broadcasts simultaneously (route one to a live
>>>> display and the other to a DVR; or both to live displays; or both
>>>> to DVRs, etc.).  I need to purchase a second one since I think
>>>> you need to be able to access 4 "programs" concurrently in a house
>>>> of 4 people (sad!  but, easy to see two being watched simultaneously
>>>> and possibly recording another for later viewing: "Dad, Betsy won't
>>>> let me record my TV show cuz she's recording some stupid sitcom
>>>> that she's already seen!").
>>>>
>>>> "Consuming" the media happens wherever you have a suitable "player".
>>>> E.g., you can listen to a telephone call on a "network speaker"
>>>> or (eventually) route it through whatever you are using to listen
>>>> to a television program, etc.  Of course, you can record it just
>>>> as easily.  Want to pull weeds while listening to the TV news?
>>>> Just pop a BT earpiece in your ear...
>>>
>>> You just brought up a perfect argument for a centralized wiring closet
>>> :-)
>>
>> No.  All you need in that closet is the media server and however
>> many pipes it needs to push enough media into your network!
>
> Until the network goes down one day, that is.

What's far more likely to happen is a disk drive crashes and you
lose the media on the drive.  The large drives that consumers would
typically purchase (incorrectly!) aren't intended for continuous
use.

>> Here, I collocated the main processors (which include those that
>> actually serve up the media), network switch/router and UPS in
>> that location.  But, the rest of the bits of kit (irrigation,
>> security, etc.) are scattered around wherever it makes most sense
>> for them.  E.g., the processors that monitor the video feeds are
>> located up in the eaves, adjacent to their individual cameras.
>>
>> If the doorbell rings, I can "see" who is at the door without
>> getting up from my office chair. ...
>
> Our dogs will tell me :-)

I've never heard a dog that could say "Bob" and "Holly"!  :>
Or, "the guy from Cox cable"...

>>> To me the wiring closet is what makes this easy. I have no ambitions to
>>> peel off signals and such (well, with minor exceptions) but if I ever
>>> needed to then our home-run structure would make this as easy as it gets.
>>
>> If you can afford the space, great!  I would *love* to have a closet
>> (or *room*!) to set aside for automation.  Stash all the network
>> printers in there, the various servers I use for work, etc.  Instead
>> of being relegated to the lower 18" of this silly closet.  But,
>> moving *just* to get a "server room" seems a bit presumptuous!  :>
>
> How many square-feet is your house? Our utility room is maybe 6ft by 8ft
> or something like that.

Small.  About 2000 sq ft.  The real problem is that it is very
"open".  No nooks to hide things in (unless we sacrificed a
bedroom).  E.g., there is *one* small "coat closet" in the
"public" portion of the house.  And that's got our coats,
vacuum cleaner and carpet cleaner hiding in it.

This is why I have given consideration to running HVAC into the
store room (presently part of the garage and, thus, non-living
space).  It would be a great location for my servers, printers,
automation system, etc.  (But, that means finding a place to
store the pinball machine, E-size plotter, potters wheel, etc.)

>> 90 degrees isn't particularly taxing.  It's probably almost that in
>> my office (poor ventilation and several servers running at once).
>> I think google's "cold aisle" is claimed to be 80F.
>>
>> But, Ma & Pa Consumer probably would be annoyed if they had to
>> replace the "media store" on their multimedia server every year
>> because it couldn't handle the 140 degrees in the garage
>> ("How do we recover all the stuff we had on the drive before it
>> died?  We had videos of our 50th wedding anniversary with the
>> grandkids...")
>
> If the garage is 140F on a regular basis you have a problem. Your cars
> won't like that for very long. I'd fix that (ventilation etc.).

When it's 110+ outside, it's hard for the garage NOT to creep up!
(We were at or above 100F for the entire month of June and another
10 days into July)

Ours is reasonably cool with the insulated door (it also faces
east so avoids the afternoon sun shining on the door).  Most
neighbors leave their garage doors cracked and/or leave the
"side door" that opens into the garage open (behind a security
door) for ventilation.

>> Yeah, I am already imagining what things will be like when
>> manufacturers start selling products with these sorts of
>> capabilities.  And, users start downloading apps of dubious
>> quality to *run* their automation...
>>
>> "Why is my hot water heater set at 190F?"
>> "Why is all the meat in the freezer thawed?"
>> "Who left the garage door open?"
>> "Ack!  The roses are sitting in 6 inches of standing water!"
>> "How did Bob, next door, manage to see me in the shower?"
>
> "... and why does the virus scanner say found Stux-sumpthin'?"

I've protected against that, here.  But, "consumers" wouldn't
be as lucky -- since they would naively "enable updates" and.or
haphazzardly install all sorts of "free" cruft without concern
for *why* it's "free"!  :>

>> It's just insane that they *don't* build below grade here (AZ).
>> Especially considering the heat in Summer.  Cooling load would be
>> absolutely non-existent!
>
> Builders are either not smart or plain don't care about energy.

They care only about how cheaply they can produce a home and
how quickly they can unload it.

And, most home *purchasers* aren't competent to evaluate the
shortcomings of a home.  "Oh, look, Honey!  There's a big tree
in the back yard like the house I grew up in!!"  <frown>

>> In New England, Midwest, Colorado, etc. I always had a basement.
>> Something you simply took for granted.  NOT having one really
>> changes how you deal with "storage".
>>
>> E.g., I would store my archives in the basement, previously.
>> Cool, dry, dark... out-of-the-way.   Here, they have to hide
>> under a bed, etc.
>
> Well, it's also a nice trigger not to store so much. People have too
> much these days.

Agreed.  I routinely go into a "panic" trying to identify things
to "get rid of".  And, still there's too much!  I swear the stuff
reproduces when I'm not looking!!

>>>> Early in my career, I worried almost exclusively about how well
>>>> things *worked* without regard for what they looked like (I have
>>>> many prototypes fabricated "on a wooden plank" or "in a wooden
>>>> enclosure").  I think its only after you get that skill-set
>>>> perfected that you turn your attention to other "niceties"
>>>> like appearance, user constraints, etc.
>>>
>>> It's usually after you get married when that transformation happens :-)
>>
>> I've heard that when you are young(er), you want possessions;
>> when older, "experiences".
>
> And often just pain relief. Like I right now, horrible toothache. Of
> course, per Murphy that set in on a Friday night.

Sorry.  I went through a similar experience recently.  I recall
making the "calculations" as to whether I should seek care or
risk the weekend, etc.  (here, dentists don't work on fridays
either!  so, it's *three* days to reconsider your decision!)

>> The idea of an eReader turns my stomach.  But, I will concede
>> this if it gives me a way to shed a few tons of paper!  :-(
>
> Same here, but I don't want to pay twice for the books I already own. So
> I don't have any e-readers (yet). And I certainly won't buy one with
> vendor lock.

Agreed.  What happens when your device is "full"?  Buy another?
Discard something to make room for a new addition?

I've just gone with PDF and EPUB formats and use a regular PC
(a tablet in this case) to view the documents.  Not as pleasant
a reading experience as taking a book out to the back yard.
But, if it lets me discard a whole lot of paper...

Unfortunately, many of the titles just aren't available in
these formats.  And, the idea of cutting the binding off
textbooks in order to scan their contents seems *sinful*!

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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
      Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
        Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
              Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
  Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
    Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
              Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
        Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
  Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700

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