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| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.std.c |
| Subject | Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" |
| Date | 2012-08-17 15:33 -0700 |
| Organization | None to speak of |
| Message-ID | <lnk3wxno7d.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> (permalink) |
| References | <502949DA.9000604@animats.com> <k0ls6m$2q7$1@dont-email.me> |
John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> writes:
> OK, now that this has been discussed for a while, a recap
> of what we've learned is in order.
>
> - Variable length arrays were in the C99 standard, but implementation
> was not widespread.
I'm not aware of any C compiler that has implemented a substantial
portion of C99 without implementing VLAs. Microsoft doesn't count,
since they very nearly don't support C99 at all -- not even mixed
declarations and statements within a block, a feature that C++
does have. (Perhaps their latest C compiler does support that;
I tested it with the 2010 "Express" version.)
(Which makes me wonder just why VLAs were made optional in C11.
I'll post a separate article asking that.)
> - VLAs have been made an optional feature in the latest C
> standard draft.
> (Ref: n1570.pdf: §6.7.6.2p4: "Variable length arrays are a
> conditional feature that implementations need not support")
Yes.
> - Microsoft explicitly declined to support VLAs as incompatible
> with C++.
> (ref:
> http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vcprerelease/thread/6099f453-db2c-49c3-b59a-b799c379cebb)
Yes, but see above.
[...]
> - VLAs have been criticized on other grounds:
> - Some implementations of threads do not well accommodate
> large stack growth. This causes a problem when a large local
> VLA is allocated.
The same problem would occur with a large fixed-size local array.
But yes, VLAs do tend to *encourage* larger arrays.
> - There is no way to recover from allocation failure of a VLA.
Yes, when used directly. But there is an alternative:
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <stdio.h>
int main(void) {
int rows = 10;
int columns = 20;
typedef double vla[rows][columns];
vla *ptr = malloc(sizeof *ptr);
if (ptr == NULL) {
fprintf(stderr, "malloc failed\n");
exit(EXIT_FAILURE);
}
else {
printf("sizeof *ptr = %zu\n", sizeof *ptr);
printf("sizeof (*ptr)[0] = %zu\n", sizeof (*ptr)[0]);
printf("sizeof (*ptr)[0][0] = %zu\n", sizeof (*ptr)[0][0]);
}
return 0;
}
This admittedly loses some of the advantages of VLAs, particularly
automatic deallocation, but it still lets you index a contiguously
allocated multidimensional array without having to do your own
indexing calculations. This would be difficult to do without VLAs
(unless some other feature such as operator overloading were added to
the language).
> - The behavior of "sizeof" for VLA function parameters differs from
> behavior on local VLAs.
No, because there is no such thing (in C as it's currently defined) as a
"VLA function parameter". More generally, C does not have parameters of
array type.
[snip]
> So, with C99 VLAs on the way out, it's appropriate to propose
> alternatives. Any alternative should potentially be portable
> to C++.
I don't agree that VLAs are on the way out. For example, gcc
supports them, and it's likely there's a significant amount of code
compiled with gcc that depends on them.
Any new feature that breaks VLAs would not be accepted.
[...]
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Will write code for food.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
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Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 11:39 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-13 23:23 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-13 17:04 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 20:08 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-13 22:23 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 11:20 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 14:54 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 21:09 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 16:00 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 18:08 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 23:05 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 06:48 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 11:22 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 15:13 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 13:00 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 22:52 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 17:18 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-16 19:20 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 13:40 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 11:04 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 14:35 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 11:47 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 14:52 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 14:41 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2012-08-16 12:39 +0100
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 09:57 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 13:28 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2012-08-16 23:52 +0100
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 18:56 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 19:23 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-15 21:47 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-16 19:14 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 20:28 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 15:05 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-14 21:09 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 13:24 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 16:39 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 15:23 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 22:58 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 00:37 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:42 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 22:57 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 17:02 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 14:59 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 15:35 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 00:51 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:43 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:31 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 09:14 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 18:58 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:45 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 22:51 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 07:18 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 14:15 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 14:28 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 14:36 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 14:54 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 15:08 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 12:50 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 23:22 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 14:38 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 00:51 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 16:32 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 09:05 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 17:22 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 20:29 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 12:36 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 16:09 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:47 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:33 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:38 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:46 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 22:28 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:34 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 09:12 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 13:09 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Wojtek Lerch <wojtek_l@yahoo.ca> - 2012-08-16 16:21 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 14:22 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 15:28 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Wojtek Lerch <wojtek_l@yahoo.ca> - 2012-08-16 19:49 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 08:56 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 06:18 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 12:42 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 09:43 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-14 19:52 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 21:03 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 21:39 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-08-14 08:26 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-08-13 22:44 +0100
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 18:05 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 21:00 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Marc <marc.glisse@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 21:18 +0000
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 23:51 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-17 09:40 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-17 21:00 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-17 13:30 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-17 23:14 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-18 01:07 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-19 23:14 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Ike Naar <ike@sverige.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-20 07:16 +0000
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-20 00:25 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-20 11:49 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-20 22:40 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-20 23:08 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-17 15:33 -0700
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