Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C"

From	Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr>
Newsgroups	comp.std.c
Subject	Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C"
Date	2012-08-16 09:05 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<502C9BB6.5080600@loria.fr> (permalink)
References	(14 earlier) <lnlihgq6j0.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> <502C1314.8030800@loria.fr> <k0h4s7$67r$1@dont-email.me> <502C27E7.3010906@loria.fr> <k0hbir$f7e$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

Am 16.08.2012 01:32, schrieb John Nagle:
> On 8/15/2012 3:51 PM, Jens Gustedt wrote:
>> Perhaps, as a mode of operation, you could just assume that VLA are
>> part of the language :) And that actually what you are proposing would
>> make them much more useful and widely adaptable?
>>
>> A strict mode could require that the visible prototype for a function
>> with VM types in the argument list (BTW they are never VLA themselves,
>> but pointers to VLA) should have the same expression as the definition
>> of the function, and that these expression should be such that their
>> evaluation could already take place at the point of declaration
>> without changing the value. Something like it should only contain
>>
>> - other parameters already declared previously in the list
>> - integer constant expressions that can be evaluated at declaration of
>>   the first prototype
>> - maybe also evaluations of global variables that are known at the
>>   declaration of the first prototype, but I am less sure for this part
>>
>> I would claim that this is good style for programming with VM, anyhow.
>> But since all these requirements would be for strict mode only, so
>> this wouldn't create incompatibilities with existing code.
>>
>> Then all the computations for bounds could again be done at the
>> calling side without changing the ABI, we still would only pass
>> pointers around.
>>
>> Jens
>>
> 
>     That's the general idea.  But it also has to work for
> dynamically allocated arrays ("malloc") which means
> the casting issues have to be worked through.  I've
> struggled with this, and it can be made to work with
> references.  With pointers alone, though, I haven't
> been able to make the hard cases work.  More later.
> I'm going out.

No, please don't even try. The force of C is that its implicit type
conversions are such that explicit casts are rarely needed (if at all)
and are frowned upon by advanced programmers. Usually only beginners
feel the need of casting the return of malloc for example.

This should remain so if you want acceptance for your proposal in the
C community.

And you don't need it. You can do

double (*A)[n] = malloc(sizeof(double[n]));

and then use that pointer as

for (size_t i = 0; i < lengthof(*A); ++i) (*A)[i] = i;
free(A);

without any further changes. So all what we discussed applies. You can
use "strict mode" for that, check bounds, everything you want. No
additions needed, everything remains ABI compatible.

There are two points that I see that have to be cleared on such an
approach:

 - have an enhancement of malloc that verifies the initialization of
   the pointer

 - help the programmer use this interface through references

For the allocation this would need a new operator that wraps
malloc. Let's call it "alloc" for the moment (it shouldn't be called
"new" since the semantics would be different from C++).

 > alloc(type-name) shall allocate one object of type type-name and
 > return the address of that object as if a call to
 > malloc(sizeof(type-name)) was issued and the underlying object had
 > been default initialized. The type of an alloc expression is
 > unqualified pointer to type-name.

So then the above allocation would read

double (*A)[n] = alloc(double[n]);

and all size checks could be performed, here.

For the programming interface there would be the need for references
that you could argue here. People would hesitate to use these
interfaces because of the ugliness of (*A)[i]. If references would be
just a convenience to replace (*A) by an identifier, this ugliness
would just disappear.

This can almost be done by a macro. In the example above

#define B /*!!*/ (*A)

double B[n] = alloc(double[n]);
for (size_t i = 0; i < lengthof(B); ++i) B[i] = i;
free(&B);

which should look ok for every day programming (besides the macro, I
mean).

Now if you introduce reference to do exactly that, give some sugar to
make the (*A) expressions disappear, everybody could easily convinced
that they don't do harm to the language and are easily implemented.

So to summarize, what you need for now to implement a "strict mode"

 - additional constraints about the consistency between function
   prototypes
 - a new "alloc" operator that returns a properly typed pointer
 - references to make the programming in that model bearable

Another point that should be discussed is how a linker is supposed to
check that two different compilation units that are compiled in strict
mode are linked together, such that it can be guaranteed that they are
using strictly (!) the same declarations. But this should be possible
by adding some additional symbol for each function that has a suitably
mangle name.

PS: I haven't seen anything about default initialization in your
proposal. I think it would be a good thing to constrain all variables
to be initialized in strict mode.

Jens

Thread

Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 11:39 -0700
  Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-13 23:23 +0200
    Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-13 17:04 -0700
    Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 20:08 -0700
      Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-13 22:23 -0700
        Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 11:20 -0700
          Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 14:54 -0400
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 21:09 +0200
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 16:00 -0400
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 18:08 -0400
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 23:05 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 06:48 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 11:22 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 15:13 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 13:00 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 22:52 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 17:18 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-16 19:20 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 13:40 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 11:04 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 14:35 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 11:47 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 14:52 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 14:41 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2012-08-16 12:39 +0100
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 09:57 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 13:28 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2012-08-16 23:52 +0100
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 18:56 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 19:23 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-15 21:47 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-16 19:14 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 20:28 +0200
          Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 15:05 -0400
          Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-14 21:09 +0200
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 13:24 -0700
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 16:39 -0400
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 15:23 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 22:58 -0700
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 00:37 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:42 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 22:57 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 17:02 -0700
          Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 14:59 -0700
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 15:35 -0700
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 00:51 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:43 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:31 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 09:14 +0200
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 18:58 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:45 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 22:51 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 07:18 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 14:15 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 14:28 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 14:36 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 14:54 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 15:08 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 12:50 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 23:22 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 14:38 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 00:51 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 16:32 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 09:05 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 17:22 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 20:29 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 12:36 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 16:09 -0400
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:47 +0200
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:33 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:38 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:46 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 22:28 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:34 +0200
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 09:12 +0200
          Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 13:09 -0700
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Wojtek Lerch <wojtek_l@yahoo.ca> - 2012-08-16 16:21 -0400
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 14:22 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 15:28 -0700
                Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Wojtek Lerch <wojtek_l@yahoo.ca> - 2012-08-16 19:49 -0400
      Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 08:56 +0200
      Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 06:18 -0400
        Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 12:42 +0200
          Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 09:43 -0700
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-14 19:52 +0200
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 21:03 +0200
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 21:39 +0200
      Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-08-14 08:26 -0400
  Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-08-13 22:44 +0100
    Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 18:05 -0700
  Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 21:00 +0200
    Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Marc <marc.glisse@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 21:18 +0000
      Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 23:51 +0200
  Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-17 09:40 -0700
    Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-17 21:00 +0200
      Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-17 13:30 -0700
        Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-17 23:14 +0200
        Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-18 01:07 +0200
          Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-19 23:14 -0700
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Ike Naar <ike@sverige.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-20 07:16 +0000
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-20 00:25 -0700
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-20 11:49 +0200
            Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-20 22:40 +0200
              Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-20 23:08 +0200
    Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-17 15:33 -0700

csiph-web