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| From | Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.std.c |
| Subject | Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" |
| Date | 2012-08-14 19:52 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <a8vhieF9pkU1@mid.dfncis.de> (permalink) |
| References | (1 earlier) <50297066.1010202@loria.fr> <k0cfg2$7a5$1@dont-email.me> <k0d8li$skj$1@dont-email.me> <502A2B85.40703@loria.fr> <k0dv72$2ol$1@dont-email.me> |
On 14.08.2012 18:43, John Nagle wrote: > OK, let's see what you can come up with. It's a well known problem, > So far, everyone who has tried has ended up with a new, incompatible > language, such as Cyclone, or had to carry extensive additional > run-time data with every pointer, such as CCured or Safe C. And is it really so inconceivable that this might be because the problem actually is _impossible_ to solve without going to such extreme measures? The capability to have buffer overflows is built all the way down into the foundations of this language. There's no taking that out without upending the whole building. Among programming languages in use today, C is most often analogized to a scalpel, largely because of the skill and discipline it takes to wield it safely --- and the hurtful consequences of lacking that skill or discipline. Within that analogy, you've observed that several teams have tried to make a safer scalpel, but all they ended up with was yet another type of safety razor. Now if all you wanted to do with that scalpel in the first place was to shave, then a safety razor would undoubtedly qualify as a great achievement. But it doesn't make scalpel use in the science lab or surgical operating room one bit safer, because a safety razor simply can't do the job there. From what I'm seeing in here, it looks like the primary difference between your proposed safety razor called "strict mode C" and the earlier models is that there's still going to be an actual scalpel in there, too, plus a switch to decide whether the thing transforms itself into a scalpel or a safety razor. That strikes me as being worse than both the original devices --- it would be just too unsafe to be a proper safety razor, and too unwieldy to make a proper scalpel.
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Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 11:39 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-13 23:23 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-13 17:04 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 20:08 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-13 22:23 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 11:20 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 14:54 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 21:09 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 16:00 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 18:08 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 23:05 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 06:48 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 11:22 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 15:13 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 13:00 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 22:52 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 17:18 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-16 19:20 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 13:40 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 11:04 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 14:35 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 11:47 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 14:52 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 14:41 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2012-08-16 12:39 +0100
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 09:57 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-16 13:28 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" "Derek M. Jones" <derek@_NOSPAM_knosof.co.uk> - 2012-08-16 23:52 +0100
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 18:56 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 19:23 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-15 21:47 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-16 19:14 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 20:28 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 15:05 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-14 21:09 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 13:24 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 16:39 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 15:23 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 22:58 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 00:37 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:42 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-15 22:57 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 17:02 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 14:59 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 15:35 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 00:51 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:43 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:31 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 09:14 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 18:58 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:45 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2012-08-14 22:51 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 07:18 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 14:15 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 14:28 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 14:36 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 14:54 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 15:08 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 12:50 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 23:22 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 14:38 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 00:51 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 16:32 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-16 09:05 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 17:22 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-15 20:29 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-15 12:36 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-15 16:09 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:47 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:33 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 16:38 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 06:46 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-14 22:28 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-15 08:34 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-15 09:12 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 13:09 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Wojtek Lerch <wojtek_l@yahoo.ca> - 2012-08-16 16:21 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-16 14:22 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-16 15:28 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Wojtek Lerch <wojtek_l@yahoo.ca> - 2012-08-16 19:49 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 08:56 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2012-08-14 06:18 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 12:42 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-14 09:43 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-14 19:52 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 21:03 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-14 21:39 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-08-14 08:26 -0400
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-08-13 22:44 +0100
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-13 18:05 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 21:00 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Marc <marc.glisse@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 21:18 +0000
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-14 23:51 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-17 09:40 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-17 21:00 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-17 13:30 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-17 23:14 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-18 01:07 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-19 23:14 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Ike Naar <ike@sverige.freeshell.org> - 2012-08-20 07:16 +0000
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-20 00:25 -0700
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-08-20 11:49 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2012-08-20 22:40 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-08-20 23:08 +0200
Re: Initial draft proposal: "Safe arrays and pointers for C" Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-08-17 15:33 -0700
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