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Re: Stack Sizes

From Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Stack Sizes
Date 2016-10-06 19:05 -0400
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <nt6lb6$1e9r$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References <nstii2$8pl$1@gioia.aioe.org> <c4268116-7fd1-41e1-bccc-5c58cbaabb7f@googlegroups.com>

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On 2016-10-06 3:08 PM, jim.brakefield@ieee.org wrote:
> On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 7:22:29 AM UTC-5, Walter Banks wrote:
>> I am currently working on a stack processor ISA.
>>
>> What better place to ask about stacks.
>>
>> How many? single stack or two or three. What depth? Why?
>>
>>
>> w..
>
> ]> I am currently working on a stack processor ISA.
>
> Checked out the ByteCraft website where there is a 2009 article on
> avoiding having a stack.  Agree that non-recursive routines can have
> their data "frame" allocated in global memory.  Which can be cached
> just as well as a software stack.  However, the number of bits needed
> to specify a location in global memory exceeds that needed when using
> a stack or when using a frame pointer?  That is: code size should be
> smaller for using the data stack mechanism rather than global or even
> frame offsets? (has anyone ever proposed compressing Forth address
> literals?)
>
> As to how many stacks: multiple data stacks makes it easier to do a
> multiple issue per clock stack machine.  (warning: bright idea ahead)
> Each stack has a single write port and multiple read ports (a common
> feature of FPGA RAMs).  Thus an ALU for each stack which can read
> from any of the stacks and write results to its stack.
>
> Jim Brakefield

It is always about tradeoff's for dynamic memory. Compiled stacks
require larger address space but address space comes in 8 bits generally
and 8 bits for dynamic space in most embedded applications is rarely
enough.

What is interesting is the price can be much less depending on the data
flow analysis of the application and dynamic memory for compiled stack
may be just as likely to accessed by a index register as it is to be
directly accessed.

Two things have come out of our metrics related to this. Most (actually
essentially all) recursion gets optimized out of embedded applications.
The second thing is the run time overhead of procedural languages like C
to tear down stack frames at run time is 0.5% to 1% often more vs none
for compiled stacks. The last point (I know more than 2) is that
dynamic array support on the stack is notoriously weak in many ISA's
but in compiled stack has the the same support as normal globals.

> (has anyone ever proposed compressing Forth address literals?)

I have looked at compressed constants and code at the ISA level in a
couple processor projects in both cases for various reasons it wasn't a win.

w..

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Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 08:22 -0400
  Re: Stack Sizes foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-10-03 07:00 -0700
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 11:14 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2016-10-03 18:20 +0200
        Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-03 11:30 -0500
          Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 15:27 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 18:12 -0400
            Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-03 17:52 -0500
            Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-03 16:06 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-10-04 08:31 +0100
          Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-04 08:46 +0000
            Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 10:38 -0400
            Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-04 11:59 -0700
              Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-05 09:59 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 10:16 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-06 08:21 +0000
          Re: Stack Sizes minforth@arcor.de - 2016-10-04 05:00 -0700
          Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 08:49 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-03 16:28 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 10:36 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@zxdehrnyya.cam> - 2016-10-04 16:15 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-09 09:56 -0800
            Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-11-12 09:15 -0500
    Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-03 10:35 -0500
    Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-11 01:01 +0000
  Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 10:21 -0400
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 11:06 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 15:22 -0400
        Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 18:04 -0400
    Re: Stack Sizes Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-10-04 20:46 +0200
      Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 15:40 -0400
        Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-05 12:26 -0700
          Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 15:44 -0500
            Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-05 16:32 -0700
              Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 20:01 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-07 07:39 +0000
              Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 20:36 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-05 21:28 -0700
          Re: Stack Sizes alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-10-05 22:07 +0100
            Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-06 00:05 -0700
            Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-06 02:17 -0500
      Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-04 19:27 -0400
        Re: Stack Sizes Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 18:58 +0200
          Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 13:17 -0400
            Re: Stack Sizes Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-10-22 12:35 +0200
          Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 12:18 -0500
            Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 16:07 -0400
              Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 15:50 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 17:36 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 17:14 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-05 14:48 -1000
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 20:49 -0500
  Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-03 16:32 +0000
  Re: Stack Sizes Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 13:53 -0700
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 17:54 -0400
  Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@zxdehrnyya.cam> - 2016-10-03 23:40 -0400
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 11:30 -0400
  Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-03 21:47 -0700
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 11:22 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-04 11:44 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 15:53 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@zxdehrnyya.cam> - 2016-10-04 16:15 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-05 14:31 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-06 08:48 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-06 13:08 -0700
            Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-06 19:11 -0400
  Re: Stack Sizes jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-10-06 12:08 -0700
    Re: Stack Sizes alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-10-06 21:47 +0100
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-06 19:05 -0400
    Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 21:57 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-10-06 19:21 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 00:10 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-06 23:14 -0700
            Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 02:26 -0400
              Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-06 23:57 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-07 08:18 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-07 10:52 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-09 16:22 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-10 01:49 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-10 10:21 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-10 22:39 -0400
                Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-10 12:36 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-13 13:45 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-14 01:16 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-15 20:38 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 02:00 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-16 18:38 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 22:27 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 21:14 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 00:35 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 23:31 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-16 20:36 -1000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-17 13:11 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-10-17 19:14 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-17 21:53 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-17 16:54 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-21 22:13 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-21 17:46 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-23 22:26 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-10-24 09:13 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-24 16:28 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-24 17:20 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-24 22:23 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-11-04 20:39 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-16 22:42 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-17 11:12 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-17 09:20 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 19:11 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-17 16:40 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 20:19 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-17 17:25 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 20:50 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-18 02:04 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-18 06:13 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-16 15:21 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 04:09 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-17 13:48 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-18 02:12 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-18 00:35 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-18 12:53 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-18 12:12 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-07 16:53 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-09 08:34 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-09 16:03 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-10 03:25 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-10 10:29 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-11 05:19 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-10 14:41 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-10-10 20:23 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-11 05:16 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-12 12:54 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-12 18:27 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-12 17:06 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-12 13:01 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-12 17:07 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-13 03:18 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-14 14:26 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-12 20:30 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-13 15:52 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-13 15:05 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-14 03:08 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-14 14:41 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-07 12:33 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-08 01:12 -0400
              Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-10-07 23:05 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-10-07 21:56 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-08 07:23 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-11 22:39 -0700
            Re: Stack Sizes Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-10-07 08:21 +0200
            Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-07 09:22 +0200
              Re: Stack Sizes Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-10-07 09:35 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-10-07 10:51 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-07 13:21 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-10-07 20:40 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-07 20:53 +0200
            Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-07 07:35 +0000
              Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-07 01:09 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-07 15:59 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-17 22:05 +0000

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