Re: Stack Sizes

From	Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Stack Sizes
Date	2016-10-04 11:22 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<nt0hf4$18n4$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	<nstii2$8pl$1@gioia.aioe.org> <480aaff9-bb16-43df-bbe7-5b32f6e39f3f@googlegroups.com>

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On 2016-10-04 12:47 AM, hughaguilar96@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 5:22:29 AM UTC-7, Walter Banks wrote:
>> I am currently working on a stack processor ISA.
>
> What is the point of this project?
>
> If you want to program in Forth, you could buy RACE chips from Testra
> and use my MFX that I wrote in 1994 --- or use their on-chip Forth
> compiler that they wrote in MFX --- if you are going to delve into
> writing your own primitives in assembly-language, then you need MFX,
> but the on-chip Forth is easier to use because it is interactive (MFX
> is a cross-compiler).

For a implement once, mass distribution how is this important?

>
> But, you don't want to program in Forth! My understanding from your
> emails to me is that you consider Forth to be an ugly language, and
> you are well aware that it is very difficult to hire Forth
> programmers who are any good (there are only a handful on the whole
> planet) --- your only interest in a stack-processor is so it can be a
> target for your C compiler that you wrote years ago (there are
> millions of C programmers on the planet). You think that a
> stack-processor will use less FPGA resources that a register-based
> processor --- but, you already tried this experiment and it was a
> failure.

It was!! news to me. Do the design math.

>
> So, once again, what is the point? Why are you still interested in
> this stuff?
>
Want to define "stuff" so I actually know what you are talking about.

> Your company has a huge investment in the MC6808 processor. I already
> told you how this design could be tweaked slightly so that it would
> make a good target for Forth, but your C compiler would still
> generate code for it with only a minor modification. A hybrid C/Forth
> processor! My expectation was that new programs could be written in
> Forth (because Forth is interactive and easier to program in), and
> they could call C functions that have already been written, so there
> would be a smooth transition from C to Forth. You were totally
> uninterested.


> You were worried that the minor modification to your C
> compiler would break existing C programs (it wouldn't, unless C
> programs were accessing the return-address, which is highly
> non-standard). You also agreed with me that nobody other than myself
> would ever want to program the processor in Forth --- all C
> programmers hate Forth and will refuse to program in Forth, or will
> purposely write the most ugly and inefficient Forth code possible in
> order to make Forth look bad.
>
> In my design, I introduced a new stack used for return-addresses,
> which would be an 8-bit register, but I also said that this could be
> made 5-bit (32 deep) if necessary. The stack used for parameters
> would be 16-bit --- it already is 16-bit on the MC6808 --- Forth
> doesn't need such a deep data-stack, but C does, and the design is
> supposed to support both Forth and C so it is necessary to have the
> big stack in order for your legacy C programs to continue to work.
> So, that answers your question that you are now asking yet again ---
> this question has already been answered thoroughly, not just by me,
> but by everybody --- you need two stacks for Forth (rather than the
> one that C needs), but they can be pretty small (16 deep for each is
> a minimum, although 32 deep for the return-stack is somewhat safer,
> and 128 deep if you are going to support local variables).

What design information do you have that determines stack size?

>
> This design was the only idea I had --- it seemed like a killer idea,
> considering your already heavy investment in the MC6808 --- if you
> didn't like it though, then I don't have any other ideas for you,
> except perhaps to start from scratch with the Stundurd or something
> similar which is a pretty big undertaking.
>

There are a lot of strawman arguments in here that are both untrue or
misleading. My views on forth you expressed are certainly incorrect, and
the role of the MC6808. To be clear to I will (and have) used any 
language that is appropriate to describe an application area. My job as 
always is to translate the application into executable code. Most of our 
C compilers are not written in C. (All but two)

The MC6808 and follow on 6808 family developments 68HC08, 68S08 and
RS08 were projects we did most of the work on 35 years ago.

Since then we implemented about 30 C compilers and about a dozen other
compilers to support various other languages.

Since then I have personally been part of the design of about a dozen
other commercial ISA's in diversified application areas. Most of my work 
has been in data flow modelling in ISA design.

w..

Thread

Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 08:22 -0400
  Re: Stack Sizes foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2016-10-03 07:00 -0700
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 11:14 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Linsel <bl1@gmx.com> - 2016-10-03 18:20 +0200
        Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-03 11:30 -0500
          Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 15:27 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 18:12 -0400
            Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-03 17:52 -0500
            Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-03 16:06 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes Jan Coombs <jenfhaomndgfwutc@murmic.plus.com> - 2016-10-04 08:31 +0100
          Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-04 08:46 +0000
            Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 10:38 -0400
            Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-04 11:59 -0700
              Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-05 09:59 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 10:16 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-06 08:21 +0000
          Re: Stack Sizes minforth@arcor.de - 2016-10-04 05:00 -0700
          Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 08:49 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-03 16:28 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 10:36 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@zxdehrnyya.cam> - 2016-10-04 16:15 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2016-11-09 09:56 -0800
            Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-11-12 09:15 -0500
    Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-03 10:35 -0500
    Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-11 01:01 +0000
  Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 10:21 -0400
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 11:06 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 15:22 -0400
        Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 18:04 -0400
    Re: Stack Sizes Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-10-04 20:46 +0200
      Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 15:40 -0400
        Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-05 12:26 -0700
          Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 15:44 -0500
            Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-05 16:32 -0700
              Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 20:01 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-07 07:39 +0000
              Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 20:36 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-05 21:28 -0700
          Re: Stack Sizes alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-10-05 22:07 +0100
            Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-06 00:05 -0700
            Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-06 02:17 -0500
      Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-04 19:27 -0400
        Re: Stack Sizes Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 18:58 +0200
          Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 13:17 -0400
            Re: Stack Sizes Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2016-10-22 12:35 +0200
          Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 12:18 -0500
            Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 16:07 -0400
              Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 15:50 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-05 17:36 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 17:14 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-05 14:48 -1000
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-05 20:49 -0500
  Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-03 16:32 +0000
  Re: Stack Sizes Chris Curl <ccurl609@gmail.com> - 2016-10-03 13:53 -0700
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-03 17:54 -0400
  Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@zxdehrnyya.cam> - 2016-10-03 23:40 -0400
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 11:30 -0400
  Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-03 21:47 -0700
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 11:22 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-04 11:44 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-04 15:53 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NoHaveNotOne@zxdehrnyya.cam> - 2016-10-04 16:15 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-05 14:31 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-06 08:48 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-06 13:08 -0700
            Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-06 19:11 -0400
  Re: Stack Sizes jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-10-06 12:08 -0700
    Re: Stack Sizes alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2016-10-06 21:47 +0100
    Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-06 19:05 -0400
    Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-06 21:57 -0400
      Re: Stack Sizes jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-10-06 19:21 -0700
        Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 00:10 -0400
          Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-06 23:14 -0700
            Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-07 02:26 -0400
              Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-06 23:57 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-07 08:18 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-07 10:52 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-09 16:22 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-10 01:49 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-10 10:21 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-10 22:39 -0400
                Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-10 12:36 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-13 13:45 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-14 01:16 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-15 20:38 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 02:00 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-16 18:38 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 22:27 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 21:14 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 00:35 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2016-10-16 23:31 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2016-10-16 20:36 -1000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-17 13:11 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-10-17 19:14 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-17 21:53 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-17 16:54 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-21 22:13 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-21 17:46 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-23 22:26 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2016-10-24 09:13 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-24 16:28 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-24 17:20 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-24 22:23 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-11-04 20:39 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-16 22:42 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-17 11:12 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-17 09:20 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 19:11 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-17 16:40 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 20:19 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-17 17:25 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 20:50 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-18 02:04 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-18 06:13 +0000
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-16 15:21 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2016-10-17 04:09 -0400
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-17 13:48 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-18 02:12 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-18 00:35 -0700
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-18 12:53 +0200
                Re: Straight Forth Re: Stack Sizes hughaguilar96@gmail.com - 2016-10-18 12:12 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-07 16:53 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-09 08:34 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-09 16:03 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-10 03:25 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-10 10:29 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-11 05:19 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-10 14:41 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-10-10 20:23 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-11 05:16 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-12 12:54 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-12 18:27 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-12 17:06 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-12 13:01 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-12 17:07 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-13 03:18 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-14 14:26 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-12 20:30 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-13 15:52 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-13 15:05 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-10-14 03:08 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-14 14:41 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-07 12:33 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-10-08 01:12 -0400
              Re: Stack Sizes Rod Pemberton <NeedNotReplyHere@xrsevnneqk.cem> - 2016-10-07 23:05 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-10-07 21:56 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2016-10-08 07:23 -0400
                Re: Stack Sizes lawrencedo99@gmail.com - 2016-10-11 22:39 -0700
            Re: Stack Sizes Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-10-07 08:21 +0200
            Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-07 09:22 +0200
              Re: Stack Sizes Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-10-07 09:35 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes jim.brakefield@ieee.org - 2016-10-07 10:51 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2016-10-07 13:21 -0500
                Re: Stack Sizes Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2016-10-07 20:40 +0200
                Re: Stack Sizes albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-10-07 20:53 +0200
            Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-07 07:35 +0000
              Re: Stack Sizes Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-10-07 01:09 -0700
                Re: Stack Sizes anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2016-10-07 15:59 +0000
                Re: Stack Sizes Bernd Paysan <bernd@net2o.de> - 2016-10-17 22:05 +0000

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