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Re: Cutting panels

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Hi Joerg,

On 7/24/2013 1:09 PM, Joerg wrote:

>>>> You probably *don't* have an equipment rack anywhere in your
>>>> home.  And, probably don't want to see a mess of cables and
>>>> equipment.  Or *hear* them (fans, etc.).  Instead, you want to
>>>> tuck it all into some corner where it is just barely accessible.
>>>> "Make it fit".
>>>
>>> We do, in a utility closet.
>>
>> As in "tuck it all into some corner"!
>
> No, it is a wiring panel with enough space. It even has a large box for
> the WLAN patch connections in case some electronics have to be added
> later. Such as PoE. The only downside is that I have to scoot the
> freezer out of the way when I want to work on the TV amp stuff without
> too much contortion (because the lower back isn't that great anymore).
>
> The room itself is so spacious that I could even fit a small desk and
> chair in there. But that would not be legit (only one path of egress).

But it's still not what you would consider "prime living space".
I.e., you don't put it in the living room, surrender a coat closet
to it, etc.  You put it someplace "out of the way" -- because you
don't expect/need to access it often.

E.g., the punchdown blocks for the POTS are located on a wall
in the furnace "closet" with a stainless steel cover "hiding"
them from view.  I surely wouldn't want them anyplace *visible*
as they are an eyesore -- even covered with nice shiny stainless!

The irrigation controller sits under an identical stainless cover
out in the garage -- a place that is more tolerant of "eyesores"
yet still not a blatant "wiring nest".

Even *this* panel's location in the bottom of a closet tries hard
not to take up "more useful" space -- nor look like the mess of
wires that it is (i.e., all the cables are trimmed to length and
bundled into a harness that runs along the wall -- low -- to
the router/switch collocated in that closet).

>>> Phone, LAN, TV distribution, vidoe modulator
>>> feedback lines, central sprinkler circuit control, things like that.
>>
>> I have these things all scattered around the house as befits
>> their roles.  E.g., the CATV distribution amp is located in the
>> "space" above the front door (what would be an "attic" in a
>> normal house but, here, is just a foot or so "tall").  Barely
>> accessible but rarely *needing* access!
>
> I don't like such things scattered.

Terminating 24 RG6 drops (plus 6 feeds) in someplace "open" takes
up a *lot* of space!  Cable doesn't like to bend in tight radii.

OTOH, a pair of 66 blocks for the POTS fit neatly under a 12" square
cover with the cabling fed from *behind* (i.e. through the wall).
So, much easier to find a small space -- that doesn't even need to
have power available -- for it.

Irrigation controller wants to be close to where the wires feeding
the valves will be located.  Landscape lighting controller wants
to be adjacent to the transformers and wiring that feed those.
Water controller wants to be near water softener/filtration/metering
devices.  Etc.

The advantage of distributing all these things is you don't have to
run *all* the field wiring to a single point.

>> The irrigation controller is located in the garage near the
>> garage door as it's easy to get out through the wall to the
>> valves (well, actually, the valves are distributed all around
>> the yard -- front/back/sides -- but this is where I chose to
>> bring them all through the wall since it is close to the
>> rest of the "water" stuff (future flow meter, valve, master
>> irrigation valve, softener, filtration, etc.) -- things that
>> are handled by the "water" controller!  (i.e., a home may
>> or may not have an irrigation system -- but *should* have
>> "water"!)
>
> All in the same utility room here. If anything needs fixing everyone
> knows where the stuff is.

So, you terminate all your phone, irrigation, security (cameras/alarms),
CATV, networking, multimedia, HVAC, etc. stuff in one location?  Your
freezer is in one location; why locate the controls for it in another?
Why run raw video to *a* central location when you can process it *at*
the camera and ship what you need (in whatever format you need it) to
wherever it needs to go (displays, recorders, etc.).  Likewise, why
have a dozen or more "heavy" (relatively speaking) wires running to
irrigation valves *through* some portion of the house interior when
you know all the valves will be located *outside*?

Just seems like concentrating too much stuff with no real gain.
(unless you need to work on the phones *and* the irrigation
system at the same time?).

Most of the time (by a wide margin), you're interacting with the
user interface for these things.  E.g., changing the criteria
that determines when the hot water heater is required to have
"ample hot water" available.  *Not* rewiring the controls *into*
the hot water heater!  You're comfortable with your hot water
heater in one location and television in another... so why the
desire to have the "controls" for them in the same place?

>> The HVAC controller is located in with the furnace (d'uh!)
>> as that's a convenient place to get at the wiring for the
>> swamp cooler, furnace, ac compressor and "thermostat"
>> (temperature sensor).  Since every home needs one *and*
>> every home needs a doorbell (?), that controller also
>> monitors the various doorbell (buttons) and drives a pair
>> of speakers in the ceiling in two different parts of the
>> house.  Since AC power is readily available, there, I
>> can spend a fair bit of power "making noise" when someone
>> comes to one of the doors (front/side/back/garage/driveway).
>>
>> Media gets served from a set of processors in a closet
>> off the kitchen (since I need rotating media, there, and
>> places like "in the ceiling" or "in the garage" would not
>> be appropriate.
>
> Over here media gets played where the media gear is, from the living
> room. But you don't have to watch the movie there, it gets transmitted
> over coax back to the utility closet and then into the main
> distribution. Of course with an iso amp so things won't pipe out of the
> antenna.

The RG6 (and "CAT1" -- even though it's really CAT5) here are for
"future owners" who will resort to more conventional media/comms
systems.  I.e., I only use three of the RG6 feeds (one from the cable
company, one from rooftop TV antenna, and one from "FM" antenna
hidden up in the ceiling) and *none* of the RG6 "drops".  The feeds
run into the closet where the signal is peeled off and rebroadcast
"over IP" (radio programs, TV shows, etc.).

My goal is to distribute *everything* "over IP".  I've done this
for audio, already (though I haven't been able to find an affordable
AM/FM radio "box").  I expect video to be a bit more taxing
(designing a good codec with the same sorts of capabilities as the
audio system).  I'm currently in the market for a good dual FXS/FXO
interface (prefering a standalone ATA-style device instead of something
that relies on some obsolescent "board" interface)

But, in both cases, the "media" is sourced from the lower 18" of this
"closet".  I have a dual OTA DTV receiver (media pump) so I can
source two OTA broadcasts simultaneously (route one to a live
display and the other to a DVR; or both to live displays; or both
to DVRs, etc.).  I need to purchase a second one since I think
you need to be able to access 4 "programs" concurrently in a house
of 4 people (sad!  but, easy to see two being watched simultaneously
and possibly recording another for later viewing: "Dad, Betsy won't
let me record my TV show cuz she's recording some stupid sitcom
that she's already seen!").

"Consuming" the media happens wherever you have a suitable "player".
E.g., you can listen to a telephone call on a "network speaker"
or (eventually) route it through whatever you are using to listen
to a television program, etc.  Of course, you can record it just
as easily.  Want to pull weeds while listening to the TV news?
Just pop a BT earpiece in your ear...

>> All of these are integral parts of the automation system
>> so none of them has a user interface, etc.  I.e., no silly
>> thermostats, doorbells, etc. hanging off walls in hallways, etc.
>
> I want the thermostat or control where the action is. In our case both
> the swamp cooler and the central HVAC are controlled from the living room.

If you mean "user interface", in that case, it's wherever you want
it to be.  I.e., I can alter the heat/cooling while I am working on
one of the cars out in the garage (even though the garage currently
has no HVAC capabilities).  Or, while pulling weeds in the back yard.
Or, while driving home from the Dentist.  I've even got a very long
range *cordless* phone so I can wander the neighborhood and still
be "in touch" with the house (I don't use cell phones).

That was the whole point of this -- to tie the controls to the
*user* instead of "a spot on a wall" or "a panel in the garage".
And, to then let the definition of "user" evolve (e.g., autonomous
agents).

>> Here, garage is a death sentence for all things electronic.  Even
>> with our insulated door it still gets pretty warm in there!
>> (before the new door, it would easily hit 140)
>
> Then the electronics isn't designed right. After all, garage door
> openers are full of electronics and they have to live in the nastiest
> area of a garage, under the ceiling. The cars also have to reside in the
> garage and nowadays they are chockfull of elecrtronic gizmos, most of
> them highly unnecessary.

You know industrial grade components cost more than commercial
grade.  Why *pay* for something designed to be able to tolerate
the heat (and North Dakota cold!) of the garage when it doesn't
*have* to sit out there?  Do you think your PC will fare well in
the garage -- while IN USE?

You want to be able to down-spec as many components as possible
to keep things affordable (I'm already in the multiple kilobucks
ballpark, here -- for just the electronics!).  If you have
to specify multiterabyte solid state disks (to store media!)
rated for industrial temperature extremes instead of off-the-shelf
*commercial* magnetic disks of similar capacity there's a huge
cost penalty.  And, longer down-times when you can't just walk
to your local discount store and buy a replacement!

[OK, so maybe *you* will have to DRIVE!  :> ]

The bits of kit that I locate "in ceilings", etc. are designed
to handle the environments they are in.  But, nothing more.
If it ever climbs to 100C inside my ceiling, the $15 board I've
got tucked up there is going to be the *least* of my worries!
("Don, why is there *steam* coming out of the ceiling?")

>> I keep debating running "air" into the store room in the
>> garage and moving the doorway to open into the interior of
>> the house (instead of into the garage).  That's a fairly
>> large space that would be a great home for the freezer
>> (currently in the garage!), my larger printers, plotter,
>> etc.  But...  <shrug>
>
> Freezer in the garage? That is tough on its compressor.

Yup.  But, we don't have much of an option in that regard.
Insulated garage door makes a big difference (and, the fact
that the compressor hugs the floor and not the ceiling).
House is very "open".  Translation:  not many places to *hide*
things!  :<

And, I'd *kill* for a basement!

> So yeah, it
> would make sense to change that. But it's probably as high as on the
> priority list as painting the pool house is here.
>
>>>> I'd like to come up with a "solution" that lets folks figure out
>>>> how best to package/deploy their own version instead of imposing
>>>> a solution.  You want to use an equipment rack?  Fine!  *You*
>>>> figure out where to put it...  (I have a friend with one of these
>>>> 5,000sq ft palaces that *likes* making his toys visible.  He'd
>>>> probably set it in a 42U rack with glass doors sitting in a
>>>> corner of his living room!  "Conversation Piece"  :-/  Sheesh!)
>>>
>>> With smoked glass doors and mood lighting :-)
>>
>> I have another friend with a small rack in his *bedroom*!
>> Dunno what the appeal of that is supposed to be...  <frown>
>
> Strange. It's usually considered uncool to show so much nerdiness. It
> turns off potential girlfriends. Unless he is already married :-)

<shrug>  I think, in his case, he's more interested in the
functionality than the appearance.  And, he enjoys "tinkering"
with it.  My goal is more a "set and forget" use.  I don't like
being a slave to my possessions -- despite all the effort I am
expending towards that goal!  :-/

Early in my career, I worried almost exclusively about how well
things *worked* without regard for what they looked like (I have
many prototypes fabricated "on a wooden plank" or "in a wooden
enclosure").  I think its only after you get that skill-set
perfected that you turn your attention to other "niceties"
like appearance, user constraints, etc.

>> [Though, having said that, I've thought of replacing the
>> library card catalog I have ...
>
> What is a library card catalog?

Before electronic "card catalogs" (list of the titles a
library has on hand), each book had an index card describing
it.  These were kept in large, monotonous "drawer units".
Typically, one organized "by title" and another "by author".
Usually reasonably nice pieces of carpentry (though out-of-place
in most residential settings).

Mine stands about 5 ft tall and I've located a workstation atop
it that I use while standing (usually for things like starting a
backup, etc.)

>>>> The idea of "custom panels" IN GENERAL makes perfect sense (e.g.,
>>>> the examples you cite).  I just don't think many would pursue it
>>>> for *this* project (which would already be hard to get past your
>>>> S.O. -- regardless of how many shoes she has!!  :> )
>>>
>>> Mine was real happy after I installed the system, when I showed her how
>>> we can now watch a movie anywhere, including outside.
>>
>> Mine is getting more and more nervous as the "controls" are
>> disappearing.  "Why can't I just use change (radio) stations
>> like I used to?  What do you mean, there soon will be *no*
>> remote for the TV??" ...
>
> Oh yeah, that would not go over too well with my wife either.

<shrug>  Times change.  Weigh the "features" you lose by giving
up the conventional remote (of course, make sure you take into
account never being able to *find* the damn things!  And, grumbling
each time the batteries die!) with the features you gain from the
new approach.  *Then* decide.

[I can undoubtedly design an Ir interface that would allow the
"old" remotes to continue to work.  But, what's the point??]

I think a lot of it boils down to a sort of reassurance that
something physical and tangible gives.  The same sort of
issue that leads people to develop and maintain *huge*
spreadsheets instead of putting the data into a formal
database and issuing queries against that (i.e., they feel
"reassured" because they can *see* all of the data when it is
in a spreadsheet -- even though seeing it doesn't make it any
more robust or correct; whereas the raw data is hidden -- unless
explicitly called forth -- when you just issue summary queries
on a database!)

>>               ...  As a concession, I had to install three
>> "control panels" so she can interact with the system in a more
>> "traditional" manner.  I've rationalized this to myself by
>> locating them in the three places where you would typically want
>> a quick summary of system status and presenting this visually
>> would be most efficient:  the two primary doors by which we
>> enter/exit the house and the hallway to the bedrooms (where you
>> "say good night/morning" to the house).
>>
>> [There's also a panel located in the closet that houses the media
>> servers but that's more of a convenience for *me*... so I can
>> do maintenance work without having to boot up a PC to "talk"
>> to the system.]
>
> But one needs a remote, nowadays. Having to get out of a chair to
> changes stations is so 1950's, and one could pull a muscle :-)

Sure.  I just don't restrict the "remote" to something as conventional
and DEDICATED as "The TV Remote" (or DVD or VCR or STEREO or CATV
or...).  I.e., where is the HVAC remote?  Or, irrigation controller
remote?  Or, garage door opener (FOR INHOME USE) remote?  Why have
all these numerous little *specialized* boxes when they are all just
*instances* of the same sort of "user interface"!  Why have to keep
track of them and maintain them?  ("Oh, crap!  I left the remote
for the irrigation controller in the dining room...")

>> I have two sorts of "connection points" in the house.  One type
>> is dedicated for specific needs.  E.g., the drop for the
>> irrigation controller is *just* a network drop FOR THE IRRIGATION
>> CONTROLLER.
>>
>> The "uncommitted" points in the house (24 of them) each have
>> a network drop, CATV drop and a POTS drop.  So, you can plug in
>> a laptop, phone or "conventional" (i.e., non-IP) TV in any of
>> those locations.
>>
>> All the POTS drops terminate at a pair of punchdown blocks
>> mounted on the wall alongside the furnace.
>
> To be honest, I haven't completed the 66 blocks. While installing our
> trusty old Cincinnatti Microwave phone quit and I went to buy a new one.
> They stopped making these, so I ended up with a large "system pack" full
> of cordless phones. Made the POTS network I just completed almost
> irrelevant, nothing much plugs into it.

Here, the phone and CATV wiring are a concession to future homeowners.
I see no need for any of them in the years to come.  But, I don't
care to argue that point with a prospective home buyer.  "You want
a phone jack in every room?  Fine.  Oh, you want a CATV drop as well?
Sure.  Welcome BACK to the 20th century."

>>>> E.g., we've dropped about a kilobuck into *just* the irrigation
>>>> system -- with none of that spent on "labor" or "profit".  We
>>>> could never have justified what it would have cost to *contract*
>>>> that job out!  If I'd *tried* to contract *this* project out,
>>>> neither of us would *ever* retire (to enjoy it!)  :>
>>>
>>> Same here. We just painted the house. It would have cost us around 7k.
>>> This way it cost about $400 in paint and several Saturdays.
>>
>> Yup.  Though it's not just "saving money".  I find these sorts
>> of "puzzles" to help keep my thinking "pliable" since the
>> sorts of constraints that you face are very different than
>> the "9 to 5" sorts.
>
> It also keeps one appreciative of folks doing non-engineering jobs.

I think it also lets you see the sorts of problems others face
and prompts creative thinking *on* those problems -- even if you
never attempt to actually solve them!

E.g., in the past few years, they have replaced all the service
feeds to the homes in the neighborhood from the gas company.  It was
interesting to see how they do this without trenching the whole yard!
(*every* yard!).

This year, they replaced the gas *mains* in the neighborhood.  Again,
without digging up the streets.  (This was actually REALLY amazing!)
When you look at the "solutions" they've employed, it gives you a
better understanding of where the cost issues are in these problem
domains.  Things that you might not have considered, otherwise.  Or,
may have *mis*diagnosed in your ignorance.

>> E.g., deciding how to plumb the pressure regulator/master valve/
>> anti-siphon device/main shutoff assembly required a fair bit of
>> 3 dimensional thinking:  "Yeah, I can envision all these parts
>> *assembled*.  But, will I be able to *disassemble* them once
>> they are positioned in this particular location?  Will I be
>> able to unscrew this fitting?  Do I need to add a union?
>
> Or it goes like "Oh dang! I should have put a union in there because now
> ...."

Exactly.  I replumbed the irrigation tap off the water main recently.
Had previously hired a plumber to do this (what a mistake!).  Of
course, *he* had soldered everything together figuring someone like
him would UNsolder things when/if they needed to be replaced.

I, OTOH, replaced everything with threaded fittings/fixtures so
it is relatively easy to service.  Granted, using brass everywhere
adds to cost (though it looks a lot prettier!).  And, screw fittings
are more expensive than slip joints.  But, when you consider the
time spent and the potential time *saved* when/if I need to revisit
it down the road (e.g., replace diaphram in master valve, clean
filter in pressure regulator, etc.)...

>> You also learn things like:  galvanized pipe sucks!
>>
>> (e.g., I've replaced everything with copper pipe and brass
>> fittings -- *threaded* fittings instead of slip fittings
>> so it's easier for *me* to service in the future!)
>
> In this area they all happily mixed galvanized and brass and copper.
> Disgusting.

I hadn't realized how dreadful galvanized is!  And "steel" nipples!
I'd only ever used copper prior to this.

Unfortunately, I fabricated all of the (irrigation) valve manifolds
out of galvanized.  I will have to recreate them in copper when I
have some spare time.  <frown>  Thankfully, they are each small
projects (four sets of three valves -- the rest are singletons)
so I can tackle them without having to shut down the system for
a prolonged period of time.

>> And, you can control the *quality* of the workmanship.
>> E.g., the *hired* plumber initially installed some of this
>> kit -- and didn't seem to know what "vertical" meant!
>> (No, 80 degrees isn't vertical... it might be considered
>> "upright" by some but it sure isn't vertical!)
>>
>> Finally, it avoids the "Olde Farte" syndrome -- folks
>> who rationalize hiring people to do things because they
>> are too lazy/unambitious to do/learn for themselves!
>> Sooner or later, the body will limit what I can do.  Until
>> then, I'd like to "try" as much as I can!  :>
>
> Same here.

It's also satisfying to be able to say you've done some of these
things.  And, you get a bit of a "reputation" as folks see you
taking them on.  E.g., each time I've dug out a tree stump/root
system it's a very protracted and *noticeable* task.  People
tend to stop by and peer into the hole (the last one required 7
tons of soil to refill!) when all they see is your *head* sticking
up above ground!

>> [12 tons of rock coming this fall... at least I was smart
>> enough to schedule it when its COOLER!]
>>
>> Having said all that (rant!), I may change my tune after
>> I replace the roof next year... <frown>  I guess a lot will
>> depend on how much heavy stuff I have to carry up there!
>> (so far, I've only dealt with 80 pound felt -- heavy but
>> manageable!)
>
> Ok, there I'd rent a lift. Costs less than the doctor visit for the
> prescription pills and cortizone shots, followed by several days in bed
> because you can't move. Happened last time I helped roofing abhouse as a
> volunteer.

I don't know what it is like to replace this sort of roof.
Previous roofs were asphalt shingle.  Carrying third "squares"
up a ladder is tedious but not the end of the world.  I don't
yet know what is involved for this roof (though I've had to carry
80# felt to make some repairs; and lugging 50-60 pound containers
of paint...)

And, of course, any *lumber* that will be involved.  :<  The *bulk*
may prove to be a problem!

Sheesh!  One of these days my body is going to remind me of its
actual age!!  And, it probably won't be very POLITE when it does so!

--don

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Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
      Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
        Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
              Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
  Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
    Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
              Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
        Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
  Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700

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