Re: Which standard?

From	Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Which standard?
Date	2012-03-26 21:46 -0700
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On Mar 24, 5:17 am, Mark Wills <markrobertwi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> The macro assembler is outstanding. It's so robust and powerful
> >> I can't reproduce it (the macro facility, much less the assembler
> >> proper) without much more work than I'm willing or possible
> >> even able to do since it was written over decades with
> >> a huge staff and budget.
>
> One shouldn't under-estimate the power of Forth assemblers. I recently
> implemented a Forth assembler for my home-brew Forth system:
>
> http://turboforth.net/assembler.html
>
> Have a read, you might find it interesting.
>
> When I started using assembler in Forth I had a similar "oh wow!"
> moment to when I first 'got' Forth. I had yet to come across a more
> powerful assembly language environment. In assembly language, macros
> and assembler often go hand-in-hand. Well, when coding assembly using
> a Forth assembler, *Forth* is your macro provider. Assembly language
> and Forth become intertwined. It's not even that you have an assembler
> 'on top' of Forth. The assembler is actually at the same level as
> Forth. You get high-level IF..THEN..ELSE structures at the assembly
> level (so no need for labels), BEGIN..WHILE..REPEAT, the whole
> shebang.
>
> No only that, but your assembly code is assembled as you type it (or
> load it). It's ready to run/test quicker than you are. And you have
> the Forth environment (the command line, the stack, colon-definition
> et al) to serve as the perfect test environment.
>
> I'm really very impressed at how effortlessly assembly language
> development merges into the Forth development environment. It's as
> neat as hell!
>
> As an aside, the source code to my Forth system is available also.
> It's very heavily commented so might assist you in your development
> travils. It's not x86 though; it's TMS9900 (an old 16-bit Texas
> Instruments processor).
>
> Regards
>
> Mark

It is quite possible to think of Forth, not as a high-level language
at all, but rather as a super-powerful macro-assembler.

In the 1980s, assembly language was very important. The only way to
get a job working with micro-computers was in assembly (high-level
languages were used on mini-computers but not on micro-computers). Z80
assembly language mattered a lot. Later on, 8088 and 68K became
important too. At that time, if Forth had been sold as a macro-
assembler, it would have gained traction. Programmers could have
continued to bill themselves as assembly-language programmers, so they
could get hired. Forth would primarily be used for compile-time code
--- later on Forth could gradually have been introduced into run-time
code. Forth could still be used in this way, such as on the Menuet OS,
but for the most part Forth no longer has any place where it could
still be used.

I remember in the 1980s that Elizabeth Rather was interviewed on
television along with some clown promoting Personal COBOL(!). She
totally messed up the interview by strongly disassociating Forth from
assembly language and saying that assembly-language was not necessary,
effectively putting Forth in the same league as Personal COBOL. People
wanted assembly language though! Even at 19 years old I knew that
assembly-language was very much necessary. That television interview
was like a punch in the stomach --- it knocked the wind out of me.
E.R. totally sold Forth as being something that it is not, and as
something that nobody wanted it to be --- she undermined Forth's
acceptance into the micro-computer programming world.

BTW, Mark --- When are you going to forget about that archaic TI99 and
upgrade to the TMS430? I would contribute to that.

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Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 15:13 +0100
  Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-21 10:37 -0500
    Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 20:23 +0100
      Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-22 13:34 -0500
        Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-26 20:40 +0200
          Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-26 15:00 -0500
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 11:18 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-27 02:20 +0200
          Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-27 10:10 +0000
            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 08:31 -0500
            Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 17:08 +0200
              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:31 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:35 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:47 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 10:15 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 12:33 -0500
        Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 21:00 +0200
          Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 13:17 -0700
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 11:24 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 17:07 +0200
          Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-27 00:54 +0100
    Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 14:09 -0700
  Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-21 15:47 +0000
    Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 20:13 +0100
      Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-21 15:07 -0700
      Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-03-22 10:14 +0000
        Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-22 16:36 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 08:47 -1000
            Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 15:19 +0100
              Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-23 07:48 -0700
              Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-23 17:28 +0000
                Re: Which standard? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-03-23 20:51 +0000
                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-24 00:47 +0000
              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 08:40 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 04:42 +0200
              Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 19:17 +0200
          Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-22 13:03 -0700
            Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 19:20 +0100
          Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-03-22 21:15 +0000
          Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 17:54 -0400
            Re: Which standard? "The Other Rod Pemberton" <dontaskdonttell@pemberton.it> - 2012-03-23 18:12 +0100
              Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 20:39 -0400
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 16:05 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-23 23:11 -0700
                Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-24 09:15 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 22:52 -1000
                Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-24 10:16 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-24 11:25 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 04:17 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 21:46 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-27 02:49 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-27 22:45 -0700
              Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-23 23:06 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 01:51 +0200
          Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-22 14:57 -0700
            Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-23 12:48 +0100
      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-22 17:50 +0000
    Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 13:37 -0700
  Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-21 17:07 -0400
    Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-22 09:27 +0100
      Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-22 12:06 -0700
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        Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 13:02 +0100
    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-22 08:17 -0700
      Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 08:25 -1000
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 21:50 +0100
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          Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-24 11:19 +0000
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              Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:12 +0000
          Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 04:06 -0700
        Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 21:03 +0200
  Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 22:28 +0100
    Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 16:36 -0700
      Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 05:15 -0400
        Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-22 12:16 +0000
        Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 01:26 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 15:37 -1000
            Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-25 22:24 +0200
            Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-26 10:49 +0100
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 20:00 +0100
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            Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:44 +0100
              Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 18:51 +0200
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 22:16 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 13:21 -1000
            Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 01:33 +0100
              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 16:06 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:44 +0100
              Re: Which standard? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 10:08 +0000
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-24 14:31 +0000
          Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:24 -0400
            Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:54 +0100
              Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-24 17:25 -0400
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-24 13:43 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 01:43 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-24 15:56 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 22:49 +0200
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:50 +0000
                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-25 09:18 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 06:07 -0400
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 22:42 +0200
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:04 +0000
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-26 04:39 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 22:29 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-26 18:09 +0000
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 11:37 -0700
                Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-26 20:49 +0200
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 13:22 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-26 11:20 -0700
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-27 11:59 +0000
                Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 05:26 -0700
                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-29 00:10 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-29 00:51 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-03-30 16:13 +0000
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-30 13:01 -0500
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-30 09:18 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-03-30 14:11 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-31 08:18 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-03 09:27 +0000
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 05:47 -0400
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-25 07:49 -0700
              Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-24 15:07 -0700
          Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 05:44 -0500
      Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 19:54 +0100
        Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:52 -0400
          Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 12:13 +0100
            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 06:24 -0500
              Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 13:37 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 12:20 -0500
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-24 17:24 -0400
        Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-24 14:18 +0000
      Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 22:33 +0100
      Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 03:25 +0200
      Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-25 21:40 -0700
    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-22 04:15 -0500
    Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-22 13:02 +0100
  Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 08:51 -0700
  Re: Which standard? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-26 22:14 -0700
    Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 23:55 -0700
      Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 05:41 -0700
        Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-27 08:45 -0700
        Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 01:42 +0200
          Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-31 13:46 +0000
        Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-27 22:51 -0700
        Re: Which standard? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 19:33 -0700

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