Re: Which standard?

Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Which standard?
From	"The Other Rod Pemberton" <dontaskdonttell@pemberton.it>
References	<jkg72o$nog$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID	<1ef5a6d3e739d90ff0f9f776f42684cc@msgid.frell.theremailer.net> (permalink)
Date	2012-03-23 18:12 +0100
Organization	Frell Anonymous Remailer

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"Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> wrote:

> "Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
> news:69c89b2e6c171fe9ff6e4aea11561845@dizum.com...
> > [...]
> > I don't have any experience with Forth.  Like Rod, [...]

> By saying that, someone here might call you a "droll" but with
> another a more True letter at the start ...  ;-)

Rod, I'm shocked you would fumble and misquote me so ineptly and then feign
insult. I'm sure the careful reader noted the "." between "I don't have any
experience with Forth" which was one complete thought, and the next sentence, which
you chopped. It said "Like Rod, I thought to gain some understanding of Forth..." 

I hope that precludes any attempt at misunderstanding! I did not include you
in the first sentence. So much for bamboozling the unwary reader.

> > I thought to gain some understanding of Forth by building
> > my own implementation (on uncommon targets that I use
> > for other work) as I go.

Ah, there it is, but missing the key words "Like Rod" and notably in the
wrong place. If I misunderstood your previous discussions on this and you
were indeed a seasoned veteran Forther when you began your implementation,
you have my sincere apologies. 

> I don't see anything wrong with that, especially if you're not a novice in
> some other language.  Others here would prefer you learn Forth first,
> assuming you're a novice all-around.

Really the preferences of others have no relevance. I did follow your
comments with interest since you are one of the more intelligent and
thought-provoking posters I read, aside for your C mantras ;-)

> > I like the simplicity of Forth, the stack approach, and the
> > building up of code from small functional bits. It's a neat
> > system that is not very common.
> 
> Forth has some interesting aspects.  The ones I find interesting are not
> what you or others find interesting about Forth.

Don't be so sure.

> A few of them were never fully explored by Forth users and implementors,
> so I won't go into them now. 

Bully for you!

> Forth uses space delimited parsing and so parsing is really simple.

It hadn't escaped me.

> An AST (abstract syntax tree) is produced directly from the source.  There
> are syntax issues or related problems.  Early Forths typically used DTC (direct
> threaded code) or ITC (indirect threaded code), which are types of
> interpretation.  In Forth, the Forth interpreter walks the AST.  Simple.
> Clean.

My main target has no stack so doing certain things like trees, especially
balanced trees is a performance killer. I'll need to implement various
things as artifical stacks (already wrote and tested the primitives for
that) and other implementations of trees I can process efficiently without
recursive algorithms. Those building blocks are useful for many projects,
not just Forth, so I have some done already and don't consider dealing with
others a waste of time, they'll eventually be useful somewhere else.

  Later on, some Forth, probably eForth, introduced the concept of
> Forth being written in terms of Forth and a number low-level primitives.  At
> minimum, you need about 35 primitives or so for a useful interpreter.  This
> concept is what allows Forth to be built up from a "small [set of]
> functional bits."

Paul alluded to this in another post I'll respond to shortly. A self-hosting
Forth is certainly a neat technical trick. What is gained from it is not
exactly clear though. In my case I have very good tools. The macro assembler
is outstanding. It's so robust and powerful I can't reproduce it (the macro
facility, much less the assembler proper) without much more work than I'm
willing or possible even able to do since it was written over decades with a
huge staff and budget. The assembler in any Forth I would write would be so
much less powerful than the assembler already available and that makes self
hosting questionable for me. I could invoke the assembler from inside Forth
but it's way down the road until I would consider if something like that is
a good idea or not.

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Thread

Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 15:13 +0100
  Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-21 10:37 -0500
    Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 20:23 +0100
      Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-22 13:34 -0500
        Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-26 20:40 +0200
          Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-26 15:00 -0500
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 11:18 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-27 02:20 +0200
          Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-27 10:10 +0000
            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 08:31 -0500
            Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 17:08 +0200
              Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:31 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 09:35 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 11:47 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 10:15 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-27 12:33 -0500
        Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 21:00 +0200
          Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 13:17 -0700
            Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-26 11:24 -1000
              Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 17:07 +0200
          Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-27 00:54 +0100
    Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 14:09 -0700
  Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-21 15:47 +0000
    Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-21 20:13 +0100
      Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-21 15:07 -0700
      Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-03-22 10:14 +0000
        Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-22 16:36 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 08:47 -1000
            Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 15:19 +0100
              Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-23 07:48 -0700
              Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-23 17:28 +0000
                Re: Which standard? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-03-23 20:51 +0000
                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-24 00:47 +0000
              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 08:40 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 04:42 +0200
              Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 19:17 +0200
          Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-22 13:03 -0700
            Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 19:20 +0100
          Re: Which standard? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2012-03-22 21:15 +0000
          Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 17:54 -0400
            Re: Which standard? "The Other Rod Pemberton" <dontaskdonttell@pemberton.it> - 2012-03-23 18:12 +0100
              Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 20:39 -0400
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 16:05 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-23 23:11 -0700
                Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-24 09:15 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 22:52 -1000
                Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-24 10:16 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-24 11:25 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 04:17 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 21:46 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-27 02:49 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-27 22:45 -0700
              Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-23 23:06 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-26 01:51 +0200
          Re: Which standard? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-03-22 14:57 -0700
            Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-23 12:48 +0100
      Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-22 17:50 +0000
    Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 13:37 -0700
  Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-21 17:07 -0400
    Re: Which standard? Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-03-22 09:27 +0100
      Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-22 12:06 -0700
      Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 19:19 -0400
        Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 13:02 +0100
    Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-22 08:17 -0700
      Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 08:25 -1000
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 21:50 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 13:10 -1000
          Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-24 11:19 +0000
            Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 07:55 -0400
              Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:12 +0000
          Re: Which standard? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 04:06 -0700
        Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-27 21:03 +0200
  Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 22:28 +0100
    Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 16:36 -0700
      Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-22 05:15 -0400
        Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-22 12:16 +0000
        Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-23 01:26 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-22 15:37 -1000
            Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-25 22:24 +0200
            Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-26 10:49 +0100
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 20:00 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:21 -0400
            Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:44 +0100
              Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 18:51 +0200
        Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 22:16 +0100
          Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 13:21 -1000
            Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 01:33 +0100
              Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-23 16:06 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:44 +0100
              Re: Which standard? Jan Coombs <jan_2011-02@murray-microft.co.uk> - 2012-03-24 10:08 +0000
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-24 14:31 +0000
          Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:24 -0400
            Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 11:54 +0100
              Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-24 17:25 -0400
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-24 13:43 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 01:43 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-24 15:56 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 22:49 +0200
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:50 +0000
                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-25 09:18 +0100
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 06:07 -0400
                Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 22:42 +0200
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-26 09:04 +0000
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-26 04:39 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 22:29 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-26 18:09 +0000
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 11:37 -0700
                Re: Which standard? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-03-26 20:49 +0200
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-26 13:22 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-26 11:20 -0700
                Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-27 11:59 +0000
                Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 05:26 -0700
                Re: Which standard? "Peter Knaggs" <pjk@bcs.org.uk> - 2012-03-29 00:10 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-29 00:51 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-03-30 16:13 +0000
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-30 13:01 -0500
                Re: Which standard? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-03-30 09:18 -1000
                Re: Which standard? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-03-30 14:11 -0700
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-31 08:18 -0500
                Re: Which standard? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-04-03 09:27 +0000
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-25 05:47 -0400
                Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-25 07:49 -0700
              Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-24 15:07 -0700
          Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 05:44 -0500
      Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 19:54 +0100
        Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-23 21:52 -0400
          Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 12:13 +0100
            Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 06:24 -0500
              Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-24 13:37 +0100
                Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-24 12:20 -0500
                Re: Which standard? "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@noavailemail.cmm> - 2012-03-24 17:24 -0400
        Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-24 14:18 +0000
      Re: Which standard? Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 22:33 +0100
      Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-26 03:25 +0200
      Re: Which standard? BruceMcF <agila61@netscape.net> - 2012-03-25 21:40 -0700
    Re: Which standard? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-03-22 04:15 -0500
    Re: Which standard? Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201203.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-03-22 13:02 +0100
  Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-25 08:51 -0700
  Re: Which standard? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-26 22:14 -0700
    Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-26 23:55 -0700
      Re: Which standard? Helmar Wodtke <helmwo@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 05:41 -0700
        Re: Which standard? hwfwguy@gmail.com - 2012-03-27 08:45 -0700
        Re: Which standard? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-03-28 01:42 +0200
          Re: Which standard? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-03-31 13:46 +0000
        Re: Which standard? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-27 22:51 -0700
        Re: Which standard? jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-03-27 19:33 -0700

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