Re: Cutting panels

From	Don Y <this@isnotme.com>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Cutting panels
Date	2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<kt0v93$356$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <7x7ggdp2ef.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ksun0e$p5a$1@speranza.aioe.org> <7x8v0su5yr.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <ksvn0l$tj0$1@speranza.aioe.org> <7xwqoc7814.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Hi Paul,

On 7/27/2013 12:53 AM, Paul Rubin wrote:

>> E.g., if I query the database for a list of the hundreds of
>> emitters feeding the various plants in the yard, a CAN bus
>> implementation would be "busy" for many seconds.
>
> I don't see why you'd have to send the result of such a big query over
> the CAN bus.  The idea is to wire the outdoor network with CAN, where
> sensors would respond to occasional queries or post updates.  Indoors
> (for queries etc.) you'd use wifi or ethernet.

In my case, I wanted *one* mechanism for moving data between nodes.
Less code to maintain, less variance in the operation between any
given set of nodes, etc.

E.g., I can implement a time synchronization protocol over ethernet
and *all* nodes benefit from it; I don't also have to implement a
similar -- but different -- protocol over CAN to ensure the CAN-based
nodes are in sync with the rest of the system.

(you would like to avoid writing a 32 bit math library *and* a 40 bit
version of the same library!)

>> Consumer devices (which probably represent *90%* of the CPU's sold)
>> are very cost sensitive.  If you can do something with 100 bytes of
>> RAM instead of 10KB, you'll find only 100 bytes in that product!
>
> I don't think that's meaningful to what most programmers spend their
> time doing.  McDonalds might sell 90% of the world's hamburgers, all
> cooked with the same recipe written by one guy, but most of the world's
> working cooks have done a hamburger recipe at one time or another, using
> methods much different than McDonalds.  Similarly, those tiny embedded
> cpus (while they ship a lot of them) are programmed by comparatively few
> people.  The total amount of code running on them is relatively small.

Most of the world's "programmers" are probably writing Javascript
WEB PAGES!

Don't underestimate the number of *different* embedded applications
that exist and are created each year.  You should be able to find
at least 100 such applications among your own possessions!

Sitting here, I know my mouse has a bit (tiny) of code in it.  As does
the keyboard.  If either of them were cordless, there'd be a bit
more (in terms of count and complexity).

The DVD drive has at least one processor in it.  As do the BT earpiece
and the digital camera sitting on the desk.  Ditto for the "spare"
disk drive I was preparing to format -- and the "learning remote"
(for the TV).

The PDA sitting in its charger has one -- with several "apps" on it.
As does the laserjet printer crammed under the desk.  (and, I haven't
ventured from my seat, yet!)

The furnace has a processor in it.  As does the swamp cooler.
As did the "old" thermostat -- and the old "controller" for the
swamp cooler.  Dishwasher, stove/oven, washing machine, dryer,
refrigerator, microwave oven, garage door opener, toaster, toaster
oven.

No idea how many processors are in the TV.  *Each* of the TV's!
Or, the little "bookshelf stereo".  Or, the tuner, amplifier,
CD player, tape deck, etc.  And, each of their "remotes".

The DVD player and cordless phone (base plus each handset) have
processors (and "programs" running on them).  As does the
electronic clock hanging on the wall.

The "base" for the iPod has a processor.  As well as each of the
iPods.  And the Zune.  And, the numerous "off brand" media players
scattered around the house.

I have a collection of older smart phones (that I use as wireless
terminals) -- each with resident firmware *plus* "apps".  The
PSP's and PS2's each have a processor (and each "game" is a resource
constrained app).

Each LCD monitor has a processor.  Each LCD projector (doesn't
EVERYONE have a couple of these?   :> ).  Each external/USB disk
drive.  The NTSC digitizers.  The DTV-IP media pumps.

The Phaser, color laser, color inkjet, photoprinter.  The duplexed
LaserJet.  The A/legal-size scanner, the B size scanner and the
"film" scanner.  The pen plotter.

Each of the UPS's.  Each tape transport, tape library and external
"media drive" (various size MO's and other "off-beat" formats like
ORB, etc.).  The managed network switch.  The firewall appliance.
The reading machine (KRM).

The four (different) NAS boxes.  The one-port terminal server.  The
SpaceBall, joystick and the NewLooq.  The digitizing tablet.

The BIOS in each of the dozen or more *different* "computers" and
servers, here (i.e., servers often have MCU's that do things like
sequence the power to the hot-swap backplane, control fans, etc.).
Plus laptops and tablets.

And, I haven't touched any of my *automation*, yet!

Nor any of the test equipment (freq synth, digitally programmable
power supplies, 'scope, logic analyzers, etc.)

*Or*, ventured into my "toy boxes" (kit that I am not currently
using) -- "gyro mouse", anyone?

What about the cars?  Or, the stuff my *neighbors* have?  Or, the
odds and ends at the convenience store up the corner (security cameras,
electronic gas pumps, refrigeration controllers, etc.)?  Aircraft?
Spacecraft? Military weaponry?

[Apparently, some of the ancient processors are still employed in
"modern" weapons.  E.g., 6502 experience is often sought in that
industry]

Or, the scads of computerized products that are sold at local
department stores and electronics stores?

Sorry for the lengthy list but you would be amazed if you actually
started tabulating how many "different" pieces of software you
are surrounded by that aren't designed with the desktop in mind.
*And*, that are created with economic pressures on their designs!

Shirley you don't think "comparatively few people" programmed
all these different devices from different vendors in different
industries?

How big do you think the *teams* that develop desktop apps are?
And they don't have to design any hardware...

> There are also folks here saying that those 100 byte cpus are being
> displaced by 32-bitters with at least a few kilobytes.  I see that
> Cortex M0 parts start at 50 cents or so.  Not much room left for
> packaged 8-bit processors below that.  The 100 byte cpu may go the way
> of the 7400 quad nand gate: it will disappear from circuit boards,
> possibly living on in the guts of ASICs.  Programming them becomes the
> province of hardware designers.  Again, a specialized niche.

There will always be mice, toasters, microwave ovens, refrigerators,
etc.  Why are people still buying/using PICs??

> Actually the most common processors may well be GSM SIM cards which have
> multiple kilobytes (there are billions of them and they are mostly
> programmed in Java for security).

Thread

Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 02:47 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> - 2013-07-21 08:05 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-21 10:38 -0400
      Re: Cutting panels "Carl Ijames" <carl.ijames@nonono.verizon.net> - 2013-07-21 12:36 -0400
        Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:48 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:29 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:10 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:23 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 21:04 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 15:07 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:11 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:27 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 21:50 -0500
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:24 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:09 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 16:02 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2013-07-21 16:52 -0600
            Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 17:13 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 12:35 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels amdx <nojunk@knology.net> - 2013-07-21 09:54 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 09:32 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:36 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:04 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:14 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 13:26 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-21 14:06 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 16:08 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Rich Webb <webb.ra@example.net> - 2013-07-21 19:42 -0400
              Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:45 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 07:51 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 05:57 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 14:46 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com> - 2013-07-23 16:41 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 17:21 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-24 09:26 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:11 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-25 16:04 -0400
                Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 13:03 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:40 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels [solved?] Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:38 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels [solved?]/summary Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:18 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels andrews@sdf.lonestar.org - 2013-07-21 12:45 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:17 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-21 19:45 -0400
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 17:07 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Peter Bennett <peterbb@somewhere.invalid> - 2013-07-21 16:57 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 20:58 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-21 21:02 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 09:20 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 12:15 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-22 16:17 -0700
            Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 18:52 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:00 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:13 -0700
              Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-23 07:09 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Charlie E. <edmondson@ieee.org> - 2013-07-23 10:03 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:59 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 15:54 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-24 13:09 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-24 15:51 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:13 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:06 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-26 19:44 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 22:21 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-27 08:12 +0000
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:42 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 18:50 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 22:49 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 00:53 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 10:16 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-26 23:52 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 17:36 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 09:22 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 12:31 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 13:48 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 14:20 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 16:35 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-28 17:39 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 19:38 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 11:15 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:30 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-29 17:38 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 21:45 -0700
                Re: Cutting panels Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 12:20 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> - 2013-07-21 21:38 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 00:39 -0500
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 01:39 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-22 19:09 -0500
        Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 20:10 -0700
          Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:07 +0000
  Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-22 18:33 +0100
    Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-22 13:44 -0400
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-22 19:00 -0700
      Re: Cutting panels Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2013-07-23 10:09 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 11:45 +0100
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 13:46 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-23 13:06 +0000
            Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:19 +0100
              Re: Cutting panels 0bama <0B@nocontrast.org> - 2013-07-24 08:05 +0000
        Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 10:07 -0400
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:26 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 14:18 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2013-07-23 11:38 -0400
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-23 22:32 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels Frank Miles <fpm@u.washington.edu> - 2013-07-23 21:37 +0000
      Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:16 -0700
        Re: Cutting panels Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2013-07-24 10:37 +0100
          Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 01:27 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Gonadicus <gonadicus@no_spam.com> - 2013-07-23 12:46 +0800
  Re: Cutting panels sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> - 2013-07-23 04:58 -0700
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 16:13 -0700
  Re: Cutting panels Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2013-07-23 13:25 +0000
    Re: Cutting panels Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-23 21:42 -0700

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