Re: Surplus electricity

Subject	Re: Surplus electricity
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
References	(8 earlier) <5bWcnWLfVPpPcV70nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com> <10q0req$20e9k$1@dont-email.me> <3f28skpgls2seijrprjqn065ao9ivjmb3t@4ax.com> <41829cc1-022a-c06f-fe34-c06b03413cdc@electrooptical.net> <p0l8skh69smghevb6b4tfm4sju3qpdkl28@4ax.com>
From	Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com>
Date	2026-03-25 14:52 -0700
Message-ID	<v92cnTAYSL24xFn0nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

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On 03/25/2026 02:32 PM, john larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 15:38:09 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2026-03-25 12:17, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2026 01:28:35 +1100, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 26/03/2026 1:10 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>> On 03/25/2026 04:21 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>> On 25/03/2026 6:14 pm, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 03/24/2026 09:21 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Seems the most valuable use-case for "surplus electricity"
>>>>>>>>> would be "gasoline-producing machines".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LOL!  It would be easier -- and safer -- to just buy an electric
>>>>>>>> vehicle and dump charge into that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But, that assumes your vehicle is always in need of charging...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a wide variety of devices, systems, and vehicles
>>>>>>> that depend on liquid fuel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The grid is nowhere near capable of fulfilling that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, in urban environments, there are not
>>>>>>> enough extension cables and not enough outlets,
>>>>>>> to trickle charge into various technologies of
>>>>>>> electrochemical batteries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's actually needed are induction chargers. Plugging in a plug erode
>>>>>> the mating surfaces. Putting a receiving coil above a charging coil
>>>>>> doesn't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I recently upgraded my mobile phone to one that accepted inductive
>>>>>> charging after the charging socket on it's predecessor had worn out and
>>>>>> had to be replaced,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In rural environments, there is not enough range
>>>>>>> of the vehicles. Also the construction equipment
>>>>>>> is not anytime soon having a new fleet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mostly there aren't enough extension cords or outlets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not a problem. there are already electric buses in service that get
>>>>>> recharged by parking on top of an induction buried in the road under the
>>>>>> last stop on their run.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe it would just be easier to pull the motor
>>>>>>> and put in a hybrid drive-train.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that does emit CO2 in operation, if not as much as a regular
>>>>>> internal combustion engine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A true concept "super-capacitor" is the idea of a solid-state
>>>>>>> device, basically a monocrystalline block with a bunch of spikes
>>>>>>> in either side basically with a thin layer of thusly the
>>>>>>> dielectric material between them, quite a different concept
>>>>>>> than the usual idea of the electrochemical storage, that
>>>>>>> has at least near-instantaneous recharge and discharge,
>>>>>>> and arbitrarily long mean time between maintenance, error,
>>>>>>> failure, and replacement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nobody who has ever worked on capacitor energy storage would take that
>>>>>> seriously. The energy density on offer is utterly inadequate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyways commercial offerings of gasoline producing
>>>>>>> machines that turn carbon dioxide and hydrogen monoxide
>>>>>>> into hydrocarbon fuels with electricity is already
>>>>>>> about the $7/gallon range.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And they are hopelessly inefficient.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a simple fact that the pure concept super-capacitor
>>>>> is completely simple its principle of operation and basically
>>>>> like pouring a giant chip for power purposes. The precision
>>>>> of the distances of the electrodes across the dielectric
>>>>> makes it a bit different than smearing paste across a film
>>>>> and rolling it up and putting it in a tube.
>>>>
>>>> The simplicity of the concept doesn't have much bearing on the reality
>>>> of trying to make it.
>>>>
>>>> Metallised film capacitors are made by evaporating metal to create metal
>>>> vapour which you let condense onto the surface of a plastic film - the
>>>> metal layer is about one atom thick.
>>>
>>> Certainly not.  Metalizations are hundreds or thousands of atoms
>>> thick.
>>>
>>> The sheet resistivity of a single-atom film would be absurd.
>>
>> It would be practically infinite. Evaporation is directional, meaning
>> that every little hummock casts a shadow.  To reliably get a continuous
>> coating on a polymer film, you need to (a) sputter it, so that
>> collisions with the background gas cause the metal to come in from all
>> directions; and (b) use a film thicker than the maximum surface texture.
>>
>> And then you have to not stretch the film afterward, or the metal will
>> crack and be flaky ever after.  I spent an unpleasant couple of weeks in
>> 2000, trying to get my 96-pixel metallized PVDF (pyroelectric polymer)
>> image sensors to work reliably.  Took an astounding amount of
>> fully-manual silver painting.
>>
>> The next batch used carbon-loaded ink, which would take a hard crease
>> without cracking.  That was some kind of relief--slap 'em together and
>> they just worked.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> Are mirrors sputtered?
>
> I guess they are optically flat before they are aluminized.
>
>
> John Larkin
> Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
> Lunatic Fringe Electronics
>


The idea here about making one of these supercapacitors,
the visual I get is like this one item from floral arrangement,
it's called a "frog", so basically what it is is like a bed of nails,
the idea is that with two frogs carefully aligned their pointy bits
pointing together and at a constant distance apart, then it's a
matter of skin effect and capacitance that it results a
capacitor, if also "condenser" is a different idea though
for many purposes not different.

So, anyways the idea is just to make a UV-sensitive hardening
reaction to separate the conductor and dielectric, then just
make a UV hologram inside the uncured supercapacitor, then
in goes a liter of resin with the properties of UV-curing the
conductor spikes by the hologram's outline, then slowly run charge
through that to draw the remaining conductor from otherwise the
dielectric medium, then UV-cure the rest of it.

Otherwise it's also just a usual account of stacked vias with
a very simple lithography (it's polka dots).

Or a pair of florist's frogs in a frame, ....


For examples, ....

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      Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-20 09:36 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 10:46 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-03-20 19:14 +0100
          Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 14:13 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:28 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:42 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 09:41 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 10:06 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 10:36 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 11:12 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-23 23:30 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-23 08:55 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 15:59 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-23 08:22 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-21 11:15 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:00 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:42 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:01 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-24 15:33 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:47 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:32 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:53 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:26 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 16:51 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 20:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 21:21 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 00:14 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 02:25 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 12:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 13:29 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 14:47 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:00 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:33 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-25 22:21 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 01:28 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:45 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:31 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 09:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 15:38 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 14:32 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 14:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:03 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:11 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 21:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:14 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:01 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 20:58 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:51 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 01:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 07:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 15:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 04:24 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 01:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 11:43 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 15:37 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-29 12:10 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-30 14:47 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-30 08:09 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-31 16:13 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-31 10:59 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:08 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-31 20:34 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:36 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 02:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-01 12:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 14:54 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 00:07 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 17:40 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 06:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 10:32 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 02:45 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:06 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:16 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:04 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 03:16 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:51 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 16:29 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity JM <sunaecoNoChoppedPork@gmail.com> - 2026-04-03 07:22 +0100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 12:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 05:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 19:16 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-03 16:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 17:05 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:02 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 16:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 12:53 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 00:29 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 15:46 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 01:55 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 16:57 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 18:30 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 02:15 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-27 10:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-27 15:22 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 13:54 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity bitrex <user@example.net> - 2026-03-18 23:15 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-03-19 12:36 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 06:36 -0700
  Re:Surplus electricity Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> - 2026-03-19 10:42 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-19 08:13 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-03-19 13:05 -0400
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:51 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 08:04 +0000
  Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-20 09:32 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 10:36 -0700
      Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 13:47 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:38 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 22:32 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:39 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-21 12:53 +0000
      Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:19 -0700

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