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Re: Surplus electricity

Subject Re: Surplus electricity
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
References (10 earlier) <3f28skpgls2seijrprjqn065ao9ivjmb3t@4ax.com> <41829cc1-022a-c06f-fe34-c06b03413cdc@electrooptical.net> <p0l8skh69smghevb6b4tfm4sju3qpdkl28@4ax.com> <v92cnTAYSL24xFn0nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com> <10q1m4f$2be43$1@dont-email.me>
From Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com>
Date 2026-03-25 15:11 -0700
Message-ID <NvWdnWYcTp81wFn0nZ2dnZfqnPpg4p2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

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On 03/25/2026 03:03 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 03/25/2026 02:32 PM, john larkin wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 15:38:09 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2026-03-25 12:17, john larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2026 01:28:35 +1100, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 26/03/2026 1:10 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 03/25/2026 04:21 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 25/03/2026 6:14 pm, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 03/24/2026 09:21 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Seems the most valuable use-case for "surplus electricity"
>>>>>>>>>>> would be "gasoline-producing machines".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> LOL!  It would be easier -- and safer -- to just buy an electric
>>>>>>>>>> vehicle and dump charge into that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But, that assumes your vehicle is always in need of charging...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are a wide variety of devices, systems, and vehicles
>>>>>>>>> that depend on liquid fuel.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The grid is nowhere near capable of fulfilling that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example, in urban environments, there are not
>>>>>>>>> enough extension cables and not enough outlets,
>>>>>>>>> to trickle charge into various technologies of
>>>>>>>>> electrochemical batteries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's actually needed are induction chargers. Plugging in a plug erode
>>>>>>>> the mating surfaces. Putting a receiving coil above a charging coil
>>>>>>>> doesn't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I recently upgraded my mobile phone to one that accepted inductive
>>>>>>>> charging after the charging socket on it's predecessor had worn out and
>>>>>>>> had to be replaced,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In rural environments, there is not enough range
>>>>>>>>> of the vehicles. Also the construction equipment
>>>>>>>>> is not anytime soon having a new fleet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mostly there aren't enough extension cords or outlets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not a problem. there are already electric buses in service that get
>>>>>>>> recharged by parking on top of an induction buried in the road under the
>>>>>>>> last stop on their run.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe it would just be easier to pull the motor
>>>>>>>>> and put in a hybrid drive-train.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that does emit CO2 in operation, if not as much as a regular
>>>>>>>> internal combustion engine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A true concept "super-capacitor" is the idea of a solid-state
>>>>>>>>> device, basically a monocrystalline block with a bunch of spikes
>>>>>>>>> in either side basically with a thin layer of thusly the
>>>>>>>>> dielectric material between them, quite a different concept
>>>>>>>>> than the usual idea of the electrochemical storage, that
>>>>>>>>> has at least near-instantaneous recharge and discharge,
>>>>>>>>> and arbitrarily long mean time between maintenance, error,
>>>>>>>>> failure, and replacement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nobody who has ever worked on capacitor energy storage would take that
>>>>>>>> seriously. The energy density on offer is utterly inadequate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyways commercial offerings of gasoline producing
>>>>>>>>> machines that turn carbon dioxide and hydrogen monoxide
>>>>>>>>> into hydrocarbon fuels with electricity is already
>>>>>>>>> about the $7/gallon range.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And they are hopelessly inefficient.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a simple fact that the pure concept super-capacitor
>>>>>>> is completely simple its principle of operation and basically
>>>>>>> like pouring a giant chip for power purposes. The precision
>>>>>>> of the distances of the electrodes across the dielectric
>>>>>>> makes it a bit different than smearing paste across a film
>>>>>>> and rolling it up and putting it in a tube.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The simplicity of the concept doesn't have much bearing on the reality
>>>>>> of trying to make it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Metallised film capacitors are made by evaporating metal to create metal
>>>>>> vapour which you let condense onto the surface of a plastic film - the
>>>>>> metal layer is about one atom thick.
>>>>>
>>>>> Certainly not.  Metalizations are hundreds or thousands of atoms
>>>>> thick.
>>>>>
>>>>> The sheet resistivity of a single-atom film would be absurd.
>>>>
>>>> It would be practically infinite. Evaporation is directional, meaning
>>>> that every little hummock casts a shadow.  To reliably get a continuous
>>>> coating on a polymer film, you need to (a) sputter it, so that
>>>> collisions with the background gas cause the metal to come in from all
>>>> directions; and (b) use a film thicker than the maximum surface texture.
>>>>
>>>> And then you have to not stretch the film afterward, or the metal will
>>>> crack and be flaky ever after.  I spent an unpleasant couple of weeks in
>>>> 2000, trying to get my 96-pixel metallized PVDF (pyroelectric polymer)
>>>> image sensors to work reliably.  Took an astounding amount of
>>>> fully-manual silver painting.
>>>>
>>>> The next batch used carbon-loaded ink, which would take a hard crease
>>>> without cracking.  That was some kind of relief--slap 'em together and
>>>> they just worked.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> Are mirrors sputtered?
>>>
>>> I guess they are optically flat before they are aluminized.
>>>
>>>
>>> John Larkin
>>> Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
>>> Lunatic Fringe Electronics
>>>
>>
>>
>> The idea here about making one of these supercapacitors,
>> the visual I get is like this one item from floral arrangement,
>> it's called a "frog", so basically what it is is like a bed of nails,
>> the idea is that with two frogs carefully aligned their pointy bits
>> pointing together and at a constant distance apart, then it's a
>> matter of skin effect and capacitance that it results a
>> capacitor, if also "condenser" is a different idea though
>> for many purposes not different.
>>
>> So, anyways the idea is just to make a UV-sensitive hardening
>> reaction to separate the conductor and dielectric, then just
>> make a UV hologram inside the uncured supercapacitor, then
>> in goes a liter of resin with the properties of UV-curing the
>> conductor spikes by the hologram's outline, then slowly run charge
>> through that to draw the remaining conductor from otherwise the
>> dielectric medium, then UV-cure the rest of it.
>>
>> Otherwise it's also just a usual account of stacked vias with
>> a very simple lithography (it's polka dots).
>>
>> Or a pair of florist's frogs in a frame, ....
>>
>>
>> For examples, ....
>>
>>
>
> Seems like that would be no improvement over a multilayer stack, and far
> harder to make.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

I wouldn't know how advanced "holographic lithography" is
for the "free-form 3-D IC" vis-a-vis the usual idea of
sandwiching layers. In this example there's no traces only vias,
with an idea that most of the equipment would be the same.

In the old days, the "lathe" was called "tournos".

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        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 10:46 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-03-20 19:14 +0100
          Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 14:13 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:28 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:42 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 09:41 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 10:06 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 10:36 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 11:12 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-23 08:22 -0700
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          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:00 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:42 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:01 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-24 15:33 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:47 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:32 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:53 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:26 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 16:51 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 20:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 21:21 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 00:14 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 02:25 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 12:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 13:29 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 14:47 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:00 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:33 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-25 22:21 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 01:28 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:45 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:31 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 09:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 15:38 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 14:32 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 14:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:03 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:11 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 21:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:14 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:01 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 20:58 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:51 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 01:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 07:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 15:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 04:24 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 01:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 11:43 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 15:37 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-29 12:10 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-30 14:47 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-30 08:09 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-31 16:13 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-31 10:59 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:08 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-31 20:34 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:36 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 02:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-01 12:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 14:54 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 00:07 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 17:40 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 06:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 10:32 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 02:45 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:06 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:16 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:04 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 03:16 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:51 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 16:29 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity JM <sunaecoNoChoppedPork@gmail.com> - 2026-04-03 07:22 +0100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 12:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 05:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 19:16 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-03 16:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 17:05 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:02 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 16:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 12:53 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 00:29 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 15:46 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 01:55 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 16:57 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 18:30 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 02:15 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-27 10:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-27 15:22 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 13:54 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity bitrex <user@example.net> - 2026-03-18 23:15 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-03-19 12:36 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 06:36 -0700
  Re:Surplus electricity Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> - 2026-03-19 10:42 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-19 08:13 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-03-19 13:05 -0400
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:51 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 08:04 +0000
  Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-20 09:32 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 10:36 -0700
      Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 13:47 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:38 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 22:32 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:39 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-21 12:53 +0000
      Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:19 -0700

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