Re: Surplus electricity

From	Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: Surplus electricity
Date	2026-03-24 14:17 -0700
Message-ID	<n2gdbsFd9usU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(2 earlier) <10pfb3r$7pri$2@dont-email.me> <n25bc8Flc1qU1@mid.individual.net> <10pk17m$1pupm$1@dont-email.me> <n2gamsFctvvU1@mid.individual.net> <10putk4$1cd2c$2@dont-email.me>

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On 3/24/26 1:53 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 3/24/2026 1:32 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> I worked at a firm that made ice on a large scale to cool the factory
>>> "the next day".  My understanding was that their electricity rate
>>> was based on peak demand; their peak demand when the building was
>>> occupied and machinery operating dictated the rate they paid for the
>>> entire day -- even though the building was empty for half of the day.
>>> So, making ice had twofold value:  shifted some of the peak load
>>> AND took advantage of electricity that wasn't being used (but was being
>>> billed).
>>
>> There are many nonsensical pricing/tax structures that result in 
>> bizarre behavior in order to get around at least some of that.
> 
> Businesses don't care about how nonsensical a pricing scheme may be.


Only until they do. I kept telling politicians how fast location 
decisions are being made in businesses. Some didn't believe me until 
they had their "Oh s..t!" moment. By then it was too late because such 
decisions are generally irreversible, or only at great cost to the 
government.


> If they can get a commitment to a given tariff over a significant bit of 
> time,
> then they can make investment decisions with that pricing structure
> in place.
> 
> The unfortunate aspect is that there are no real guarantees for this.
> Tariffs can (and do) change.  So, it becomes a gamble as to whether or
> not an investment decision will "make sense" in that changing environment.
> 
> Here, folks are learning that grid connected cogeneration leaves you
> at the mercy of the utility -- both in terms of how much you can deploy
> and what that will *cost* you, in the long run (you are using a resource
> that belongs to the utility so it has an argument about how it charges
> you for that usage).
> 

Out here even consumers are now partially decoupling. The start is 
usually a fridge/freezer circuit, then swamp cooling and so on. They run 
dedicated lines, install their own solar panels, batteries and 
inverters, and only charge that from utility power in rare situations 
where the solar doesn't deliver enough. Since older solar panels can be 
considered hazardous waste and then become next to impossible to dispose 
of, you can often acquire those for pennies on the dollar and then 
grossly overpanel.


> It also forces you onto a ToU tariff so the extra load you have during
> those peak hours (e.g., your air conditioning unit) is billed at a
> higher rate than if you had the standard tariff.
> 
> If you don't use the utility as a storage medium, then only local
> building codes determine how much power you can generate and how
> you dispose of the excess (run outdoor lights during the daylight
> hours to boast of how much "extra" power you have available, to
> the disdain of your neighbors).
> 

Well, my last employer before becoming self-employed again reacted like 
many businesses do. They moved nearly all of production To Costa Rica. 
That fixes such issues.


>> I am largely retired but in California I believe we had (have?) a sort 
>> of inventory tax or measure that took that into account (UDITPA?). 
>> Anyhow, when I moved here I asked about the reasons for the smog cloud 
>> over Highway 50 only in December. I was told it was trucks carting 
>> lots of inventory to warehouses in Nevada. And then back.
> 
> Yes.  Because it only matters where the inventory is located at
> year's end.  Prorate this for number of days in each locality and
> the behavior changes because the economics change.
> 

Can't prorate because inventory logging takes place only once a year. It 
is a tedious and productivity-robbing process so politicians cannot 
force companies to do that monthly. Else their tax bases would erode 
even faster than it does today.

[...]


>>> Making ice on that large of a scale likely took a huge investment
>>> in capital equipment.  But, was also a huge energy "saver" (misnomer).
>>>
>>> As with pools, many parts of the country don't have/need air 
>>> conditioning
>>> (at least not on the scale and frequency that we use it here -- 101F
>>> yesterday) so it loses its value as a potential solution on those 
>>> grounds.
>>
>> Same in Germany where I grew up. A/C wasn't needed. However, they used 
>> the same concept for heating, converting lots of electrical kWh into 
>> thermal energy and then storing that for the next day in a massive 
>> amount of dense bricks. Insulation only does so much and some of that 
>> heat leaked out overnight when it wasn't needed.
> 
> But, if the energy costs are negligible (or nil), who cares if you only net
> 10% from it?  If that 10% will justify the capital equipment outlay and
> operating costs...
> 

Yep.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:42 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:01 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-24 15:33 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:47 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:32 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:53 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:26 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 16:51 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 20:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 21:21 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 00:14 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 02:25 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 09:17 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 20:58 -0400
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                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 01:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 07:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 15:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 04:24 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 11:43 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-29 12:10 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-30 14:47 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-30 08:09 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-31 16:13 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-31 10:59 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:08 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-31 20:34 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:36 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 02:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-01 12:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 14:54 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 00:07 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 17:40 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 06:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 10:32 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 02:45 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:06 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:16 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:04 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 03:16 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:51 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 16:29 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity JM <sunaecoNoChoppedPork@gmail.com> - 2026-04-03 07:22 +0100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 12:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 05:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 19:16 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-03 16:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 17:05 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:02 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 16:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 12:53 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 00:29 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 15:46 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 01:55 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 16:57 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 18:30 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 02:15 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-27 10:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-27 15:22 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 13:54 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity bitrex <user@example.net> - 2026-03-18 23:15 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-03-19 12:36 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 06:36 -0700
  Re:Surplus electricity Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> - 2026-03-19 10:42 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-19 08:13 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-03-19 13:05 -0400
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:51 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 08:04 +0000
  Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-20 09:32 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 10:36 -0700
      Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 13:47 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:38 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 22:32 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:39 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-21 12:53 +0000
      Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:19 -0700

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