Re: Surplus electricity

Subject	Re: Surplus electricity
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
References	(15 earlier) <WXednTIHJONWdl70nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@giganews.com> <10q1d52$271rh$1@dont-email.me> <RhednQqapuw32Fn0nZ2dnZfqnPidnZ2d@giganews.com> <10q1l4i$2ako4$1@dont-email.me> <XNudnYZq7oRnx1n0nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@giganews.com>
From	Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com>
Date	2026-03-25 15:20 -0700
Message-ID	<MP-cnbj8JPkGwln0nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

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On 03/25/2026 03:00 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
> On 03/25/2026 02:47 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>> A 25 Kw solar power station is about two palettes of panels,
>>> a professional industrial inverter, and material of mounts
>>> and wires, each about 1/3 the cost.
>>
>> A 24KW *PV* installation takes a lot of real estate.
>> Here, the "easy" way to get a solar installation approved is to
>> mount it on a rooftop.  So, you need a relatively large house
>> (on a par with the area occupied by the panels) for which
>> a good view of the sky is available during the entire daylight
>> hours.  Note that you also need "accessways" to make sure
>> you can service ANY individual panel -- without having to
>> dismantle much of the array.
>>
>> In places where weather might bring large hail, you have to
>> fear the damage that can cause to panels.  Or, vulnerability
>> to microbursts, etc.
>>
>> You have to be able to clean the array if you don't have
>> regular precipitation.
>>
>> The array must support any potential snow loads.
>>
>> The array complicates the servicing of the supporting roof
>> structure.
>>
>> etc.
>>
>> We'll put a few KW on the south side of the  house, mounting
>> the topside of the panel AT the roofline with the low end
>> supported beyond the extents of the house (like an awning).
>> This provides the requisite exposure AND lets the mass
>> of the house block the microbursts we experience "from the
>> north".  This approach puts an upper limit on the surface
>> area that can be exposed and, thus, a limit on the power available.
>>
>> Of course, that only works for *us*.  Other nearby houses wouldn't
>> be situated to take advantage of a similar installation.
>>
>> However, as the array is not "roof mounted", this requires
>> architectural drawings and inspections instead of a "one click"
>> approval process.
>>
>> A Stirling engine on a parabolic collector would be more
>> space efficient.  But, pose other logistical problems (not
>> the least of which being the eyesore it would represent
>> in a suburban setting)
>>
>>> Running at about 600V keeps it out of "high-voltage" territory,
>>> while 25 kW is enough to get a nameplate, yet just less than
>>> that involved in a sub-station. I.e., fees involved with
>>> grid inter-tie are minimum.
>>>
>>> Notions of battery storage and the like, for example flooded
>>> lead-acid the most mature, temperature agnostic, and cost efficient
>>> electrochemical battery store, adds about another chunk of cost,
>>> as does a generator, or matters of grid inter-tie, or here a "gasoline
>>> machine".
>>
>> Batteries are also consumables.  You have to budget time and money
>> to replace them periodically.
>>
>>> So, a "power system" that occupies about 40x80 feet and a
>>
>> So, likely a 3000+ sq ft house.
>>
>> Most practical residential installations, here, are in the 6-8KW range.
>> Of course, most residences have sustained demands in excess of 10KW
>> (air conditioning) so the math works in the public utility's favor.
>>
>>> service vestibule and generator house is less cost than,
>>> say, about the cheapest motor vehicle on the market these days.
>>>
>>> That and a week or two of assembly and inspection.
>>
>> By a *licensed* "solar installer".
>
>
> Around here one can do their own electrical work. (The usual idea
> is to be sure and ground the arrays, vis-a-vis these other ideas
> about "floating ground" and non-sense about smart-meters and
> Ethernet over power lines. This has a usual idea of isolating
> the service drop in a little out-house, where of course if
> there's grid-intertie then there are just some crossbar
> switches behind a door with a lock only the power company
> and the owner have, the service vestibule.)
>
> Of course, it's recommended to get professionals for any
> sort of skilled activity, ..., then though the practice
> of contracting the work usually involves matter of license
> and bonding, since insurance and liability.
>
> Lots of software engineers have no idea that real engineers
> have quite a bit involved their "licenses".
>
>
> The "smart-meter" principle of operation is essentially
> very simple. In usual practice it's a node.
>
> The next sort usual component in the power system
> is a "line conditioner" a.k.a. "surge protector",
> though "line conditioner" involves the idea of
> the quite cleaner the power.
>
>
>
>

The maintainable flooded lead-acid battery cell does expect
maintenance, and there are the risks of off-gassing and as
well the dangers of exposure to lead and sulfuric acid,
besides the usual hazards of electrical circuits, while
though among electrochemical battery technologies it
operates in the widest temperature range where lithium
croaks, and if not discharged very deeply, the flooded
lead-acid battery has an arguably indefinite lifespan.

There's a usual idea to switch banks one for charging
the other discharging, though that would double the
cost of otherwise a usual "it all goes to the same place"
approach.

Also, the "waste-stream" (and the recycling) of the
flooded lead-acid batteries is in a better place
than the lithium technologies', which of course have
their own economies with regards to smaller form-factors
for mobile applications. That said the usual old idea
for mobile applications is "golfcart" and "forklift" batteries.

The lithium batteries as flammable essentially have the
catastrophic sort of notions as "the compartment" or "the mail"
or "the cargo hold" or "the pocket" where failed lithium
batteries have bad failure modes, though that's as old
hat as alkaline batteries, if not the "inextinguishable" part.


Cost-wise if not pound-wise, and risk-wise if not convenience-wise,
flooded lead-acid batteries are competitive.

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Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-18 15:09 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> - 2026-03-18 23:58 +0100
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-18 16:05 -0700
      Re: Surplus electricity John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 23:18 +0000
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      Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-20 09:36 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 10:46 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-03-20 19:14 +0100
          Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 14:13 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:28 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:42 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 09:41 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 10:06 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 10:36 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 11:12 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-23 23:30 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-23 08:55 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 15:59 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-23 08:22 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-21 11:15 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:00 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:42 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:01 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-24 15:33 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:47 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:32 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:53 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:26 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 16:51 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 20:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 21:21 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 00:14 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 02:25 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 12:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 13:29 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 14:47 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:00 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:33 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-25 22:21 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 01:28 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:45 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:31 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 09:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 15:38 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 14:32 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 14:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:03 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:11 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 21:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:14 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:01 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 20:58 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:51 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 01:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 07:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 15:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 04:24 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 01:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 11:43 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 15:37 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-29 12:10 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-30 14:47 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-30 08:09 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-31 16:13 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-31 10:59 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:08 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-31 20:34 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:36 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 02:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-01 12:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 14:54 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 00:07 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 17:40 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 06:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 10:32 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 02:45 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:06 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:16 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:04 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 03:16 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:51 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 16:29 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity JM <sunaecoNoChoppedPork@gmail.com> - 2026-04-03 07:22 +0100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 12:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 05:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 19:16 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-03 16:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 17:05 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:02 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 16:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 12:53 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 00:29 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 15:46 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 01:55 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 16:57 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 18:30 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 02:15 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-27 10:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-27 15:22 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 13:54 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity bitrex <user@example.net> - 2026-03-18 23:15 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-03-19 12:36 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 06:36 -0700
  Re:Surplus electricity Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> - 2026-03-19 10:42 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-19 08:13 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-03-19 13:05 -0400
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:51 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 08:04 +0000
  Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-20 09:32 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 10:36 -0700
      Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 13:47 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:38 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 22:32 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:39 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-21 12:53 +0000
      Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:19 -0700

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