Re: Surplus electricity

From	Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: Surplus electricity
Date	2026-03-20 13:43 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10pkbib$1tstn$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <10ph4td$plm0$3@dont-email.me> <10ph9nu$sf6d$1@dont-email.me> <10phebn$ue51$1@dont-email.me> <10phmcc$10qai$1@dont-email.me> <10pjsku$1o9kc$1@dont-email.me>

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>>>> *Rain* water purification might be a win.  I think it is most
>>>> commonly used for irrigation, here.  Being able to replace
>>>> domestic water supply could be an asset (here) as our water
>>>> supply is perpetually under threat.
>>>
>>> Rainwater is usable with only pumping and maybe sterilization input.
>>
>> At the very least, it has to be heavily filtered (we have a lot of
>> crap in the air -- PARKED cars end up *dirty* after a rainfall).
>> Each year, I inspect/clean the roof.  A powerwasher dislodges
>> "black crud" that is likely automobile emissions that have
>> settled on the roof.
>>
>> And, we only get rain in two short periods each year.  So, any
>> collected rainwater has to be stored for months at a time.
>>
>> Rainwater harvesting isn't practical for irrigation (at least not
>> for water intensive plantings) as there is so little collected
>> (relatively) and such a big need.
>>
>> E.g., with ~11 inches of precip annually, we'd be able to collect
>> (using rooftop, only), about 20,000 gallons in a year.  Domestic water
>> use is about 70-80 G/day/person so that leaves you with ~9 months
>> for a single occupant.
> 
> 60 gal/day/person is a rather good supply  compared to rainfall: 22K
> gal/year.

<https://www.epa.gov/watersense/how-we-use-water> claims:
"The average American family uses more than 300 gallons of water
per day at home. Roughly 70 percent of this use occurs indoors."

Assume (?) 4 individuals using those 210 gallons.

<https://mapazdashboard.arizona.edu/infrastructure/residential-water-use>
claims:
"In 2020, the Tucson AMA's residential customers used 126 gallons per capita
per day (GPCD) of water. The Santa Cruz AMA reported the lowest rate at 107
GPCD, while the Pinal AMA reported the highest at 184 GPCD. The Tucson AMA
reduced their residential water use by 41 GPCD or 24.6%, from 2000 to 2020."
That likely includes some outdoor use (though most properties are xeriscaped).

OTOH, there are likely many homes that use evaporative cooling.
And, folks with pools have large evaporative losses.  And, idiots
with "lawns" probably lose half of their irrigation to evaporation!

[Our usage is high as we have many citrus trees that provide shade,
cooling and fruit]

>>> That takes very little energy. Desalination costs about 1kWh/cubic meter
>>> for seawater at the theoretical minimum. Realistic costs are 2-3x higher.
>>
>> We don't have access to salt/sea water so the larger problem is hte
>> water supply, not processing.
> 
> But you do have water, or you wouldn't be living where you are. Your

Without the CAP, this area wouldn't have enough water to fit
its *residential* needs, let alone agriculture (why the hell are
we growing cotton???)

> source of water is therefore your own discard stream. Cleaning that
> up and reusing it to the extent that's economical makes sense if the
> electricity required would otherwise be unused and you need the water..

As I mentioned, getting access to the waste (grey) water would
be capital intensive.  You'd have to plumb from the outlet of each
sink/drain *before* the plumbing enters the slab.  Then, somehow snake
that line to conjoin with the other water sources and, eventually,
terminate at a place where it could be processed and reclaimed.

By contrast, rainwater can be collected directly from the roof.
(We have a frontier-style home so all of the precipitation
leaves the roof at the rear -- which makes gutters impractical.
You'd have to install a "french drain" and collect it below
grade AFTER it had left the structure)

>>>>> Not worth doing everywhere, but certainly in some places. Reverse
>>>>> osmosis can have a short duty cycle, at least shorter than distillation
>>>>> schemes.
>>>>
>>>> I think RO produces lots of "waste" water (?).  We don't have easy
>>>> access to "salt water".
>>>
>>> Thus my suggestion to reclaim wastewater, which everybody has 8-)
>>
>> Wastewater is hard to reclaim, here, as they build on slabs.
>> You'd have to plumb from *each* drain instead of trying to capture
>> that water at one point where it moves to the sanitary sewer.
>   
> That's a matter of money and planning, not technology. You might
> find it cheaper to replumb, maybe not.

Replumbing is tens of kilobucks.  Remove the attic that your home
likely has.  And the basement.  Where will you run the lines?
Can you get from every point A to every point B traveling
entirely *through* walls?

Neighbor had a problem with their plumbing and had to resort to
such an effort.  Walls opened, patched, repainted, etc.  Slab
jackhammered where a wall didn't/couldn't exist to breach a gap.
They had folks working on the house for more than a month.

Then, had to call them back (twice!) as leaks inside the
walls materialized (poor workmanship/technology -- hard to
run copper pipe AFTER the house is built so they use
alternatives)

None of these would be practical options for more than the
most determined.  If faced with imposed rationing, we would
fell the fruit trees (the rest of the yard is low maintenance).
Currently, we just pay for the increased water and sewer costs
(the fruit is THAT good).

> Combined grey and black
> water isn't impossible, though probably not practical on a home
> scale.. Composting toilets are one solution, but they have their
> own issues.
>   
> 
>>> The amount of wastewater is roughly proportional to input salinity
>>> over energy budget. If the input is cleaner, in the sense of
>>> TDS, the waste amount goes down.
>   
>> I don't know how our rainwater would compare with municipal water
>> supply (which is very "hard" water).  As I said, we tend to have
>> lots of crap in the air (think: haboob).  OTOH, our municipal water
>> is ground sourced so it picks up crap there.
> 
> In terms of TDS (so, osmotic pressure) it's almost certainly far better.
> Unless the rainwater is collected on a soluble surface (limestone gravel
> roof, for example). That would saturate the water with calcium bicarbonate,
> and make the collected water hard.
> 
> Water scarcity first takes the form of water quality problems. That's
> where upcycling using surplus electricity might make sense. But the
> situation has to be dire, as on Mediterranean islands. And, soon,
> in the American Southwest.

Water has always been a problem, here.  But, we tend to be more "responsible"
than in other parts of the country (where folks might "sweep" their driveway
clean with a stream of water instead of a BROOM!).  Or, washing their vehicle
in their driveway.

However, it appears that other parts of the country are now starting to
have to address water issues and likely haven't yet acquired the proper
mindset for the lifestyle changes that it requires.

"In general", it doesn't seem like the expense (of water harvesting and
reclamation) would be something folks would stomach for little gain.
It might factor into new developments but not "old work".

It's *really* hard to find a "universal" use for excess power as the
(potential) big loads vary based on locale.  And, you don't want to risk
changing behaviors so that these capabilities become *expectations*
instead of frosting on the cake.

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Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-18 15:09 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 13:43 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 09:41 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-23 08:22 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-21 11:15 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:00 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:42 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:01 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-24 15:33 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:47 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:32 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:53 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:26 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 16:51 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 20:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 21:21 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 00:14 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 02:25 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 12:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 13:29 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 14:47 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:00 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:33 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-25 22:21 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 01:28 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:45 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:31 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 09:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 15:38 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 14:32 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 14:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:03 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:11 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 21:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:14 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:01 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 20:58 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:51 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 01:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 07:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 15:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 04:24 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 01:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 11:43 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 15:37 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-29 12:10 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-30 14:47 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 18:30 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 02:15 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-27 10:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-27 15:22 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 13:54 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity bitrex <user@example.net> - 2026-03-18 23:15 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-03-19 12:36 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 06:36 -0700
  Re:Surplus electricity Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> - 2026-03-19 10:42 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-19 08:13 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-03-19 13:05 -0400
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:51 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 08:04 +0000
  Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-20 09:32 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 10:36 -0700
      Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 13:47 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:38 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 22:32 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:39 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-21 12:53 +0000
      Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:19 -0700

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