Re: Surplus electricity

From	Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: Surplus electricity
Date	2026-03-25 22:03 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10q1m4f$2be43$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <10q0req$20e9k$1@dont-email.me> <3f28skpgls2seijrprjqn065ao9ivjmb3t@4ax.com> <41829cc1-022a-c06f-fe34-c06b03413cdc@electrooptical.net> <p0l8skh69smghevb6b4tfm4sju3qpdkl28@4ax.com> <v92cnTAYSL24xFn0nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com>

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Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 03/25/2026 02:32 PM, john larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Mar 2026 15:38:09 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2026-03-25 12:17, john larkin wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2026 01:28:35 +1100, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 26/03/2026 1:10 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>> On 03/25/2026 04:21 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 25/03/2026 6:14 pm, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 03/24/2026 09:21 PM, Don Y wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Seems the most valuable use-case for "surplus electricity"
>>>>>>>>>> would be "gasoline-producing machines".
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> LOL!  It would be easier -- and safer -- to just buy an electric
>>>>>>>>> vehicle and dump charge into that.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But, that assumes your vehicle is always in need of charging...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There are a wide variety of devices, systems, and vehicles
>>>>>>>> that depend on liquid fuel.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The grid is nowhere near capable of fulfilling that.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Not yet.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> For example, in urban environments, there are not
>>>>>>>> enough extension cables and not enough outlets,
>>>>>>>> to trickle charge into various technologies of
>>>>>>>> electrochemical batteries.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What's actually needed are induction chargers. Plugging in a plug erode
>>>>>>> the mating surfaces. Putting a receiving coil above a charging coil
>>>>>>> doesn't.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I recently upgraded my mobile phone to one that accepted inductive
>>>>>>> charging after the charging socket on it's predecessor had worn out and
>>>>>>> had to be replaced,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In rural environments, there is not enough range
>>>>>>>> of the vehicles. Also the construction equipment
>>>>>>>> is not anytime soon having a new fleet.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Mostly there aren't enough extension cords or outlets.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Not a problem. there are already electric buses in service that get
>>>>>>> recharged by parking on top of an induction buried in the road under the
>>>>>>> last stop on their run.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Maybe it would just be easier to pull the motor
>>>>>>>> and put in a hybrid drive-train.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But that does emit CO2 in operation, if not as much as a regular
>>>>>>> internal combustion engine.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A true concept "super-capacitor" is the idea of a solid-state
>>>>>>>> device, basically a monocrystalline block with a bunch of spikes
>>>>>>>> in either side basically with a thin layer of thusly the
>>>>>>>> dielectric material between them, quite a different concept
>>>>>>>> than the usual idea of the electrochemical storage, that
>>>>>>>> has at least near-instantaneous recharge and discharge,
>>>>>>>> and arbitrarily long mean time between maintenance, error,
>>>>>>>> failure, and replacement.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nobody who has ever worked on capacitor energy storage would take that
>>>>>>> seriously. The energy density on offer is utterly inadequate.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Anyways commercial offerings of gasoline producing
>>>>>>>> machines that turn carbon dioxide and hydrogen monoxide
>>>>>>>> into hydrocarbon fuels with electricity is already
>>>>>>>> about the $7/gallon range.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And they are hopelessly inefficient.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's a simple fact that the pure concept super-capacitor
>>>>>> is completely simple its principle of operation and basically
>>>>>> like pouring a giant chip for power purposes. The precision
>>>>>> of the distances of the electrodes across the dielectric
>>>>>> makes it a bit different than smearing paste across a film
>>>>>> and rolling it up and putting it in a tube.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The simplicity of the concept doesn't have much bearing on the reality
>>>>> of trying to make it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Metallised film capacitors are made by evaporating metal to create metal
>>>>> vapour which you let condense onto the surface of a plastic film - the
>>>>> metal layer is about one atom thick.
>>>> 
>>>> Certainly not.  Metalizations are hundreds or thousands of atoms
>>>> thick.
>>>> 
>>>> The sheet resistivity of a single-atom film would be absurd.
>>> 
>>> It would be practically infinite. Evaporation is directional, meaning
>>> that every little hummock casts a shadow.  To reliably get a continuous
>>> coating on a polymer film, you need to (a) sputter it, so that
>>> collisions with the background gas cause the metal to come in from all
>>> directions; and (b) use a film thicker than the maximum surface texture.
>>> 
>>> And then you have to not stretch the film afterward, or the metal will
>>> crack and be flaky ever after.  I spent an unpleasant couple of weeks in
>>> 2000, trying to get my 96-pixel metallized PVDF (pyroelectric polymer)
>>> image sensors to work reliably.  Took an astounding amount of
>>> fully-manual silver painting.
>>> 
>>> The next batch used carbon-loaded ink, which would take a hard crease
>>> without cracking.  That was some kind of relief--slap 'em together and
>>> they just worked.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> Phil Hobbs
>> 
>> Are mirrors sputtered?
>> 
>> I guess they are optically flat before they are aluminized.
>> 
>> 
>> John Larkin
>> Highland Tech Glen Canyon Design Center
>> Lunatic Fringe Electronics
>> 
> 
> 
> The idea here about making one of these supercapacitors,
> the visual I get is like this one item from floral arrangement,
> it's called a "frog", so basically what it is is like a bed of nails,
> the idea is that with two frogs carefully aligned their pointy bits
> pointing together and at a constant distance apart, then it's a
> matter of skin effect and capacitance that it results a
> capacitor, if also "condenser" is a different idea though
> for many purposes not different.
> 
> So, anyways the idea is just to make a UV-sensitive hardening
> reaction to separate the conductor and dielectric, then just
> make a UV hologram inside the uncured supercapacitor, then
> in goes a liter of resin with the properties of UV-curing the
> conductor spikes by the hologram's outline, then slowly run charge
> through that to draw the remaining conductor from otherwise the
> dielectric medium, then UV-cure the rest of it.
> 
> Otherwise it's also just a usual account of stacked vias with
> a very simple lithography (it's polka dots).
> 
> Or a pair of florist's frogs in a frame, ....
> 
> 
> For examples, ....
> 
> 

Seems like that would be no improvement over a multilayer stack, and far
harder to make.  

Cheers 

Phil Hobbs 

-- 
Dr Philip C D Hobbs  Principal Consultant  ElectroOptical Innovations LLC /
Hobbs ElectroOptics  Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

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          Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 14:13 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:28 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:42 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 09:41 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-21 11:12 -0700
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            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:42 -0700
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                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:18 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-24 15:33 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 10:47 -0700
          Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 13:32 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 13:53 -0700
              Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 14:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 15:26 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-24 16:51 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 17:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 20:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-24 21:21 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 00:14 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 02:25 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 12:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 13:29 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 14:47 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:00 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:33 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:54 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-25 18:20 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-25 22:21 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 01:28 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 07:45 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:31 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 09:17 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 15:38 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 14:32 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 14:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:03 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-25 15:11 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 21:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:14 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-25 22:01 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-25 15:52 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 20:58 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:51 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 01:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-26 07:48 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-27 15:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 04:24 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 01:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-27 11:43 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 15:37 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-29 12:10 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-30 14:47 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-30 08:09 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-31 16:13 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-31 10:59 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:08 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-03-31 20:34 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-01 15:36 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-01 01:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 02:25 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-01 12:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 14:54 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 00:07 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-02 17:40 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 06:53 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 10:32 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 02:45 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:06 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:16 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:07 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-04-02 09:04 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-02 08:05 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 03:16 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-02 20:51 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-03 16:29 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity JM <sunaecoNoChoppedPork@gmail.com> - 2026-04-03 07:22 +0100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 12:17 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 05:10 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-03 19:16 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-04-03 16:30 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 17:05 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:02 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-04 16:55 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-04 11:35 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 12:53 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 00:29 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 15:46 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-04-05 01:55 -0400
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-04-05 16:57 +1000
                Re: Surplus electricity Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2026-03-26 18:30 +0000
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-28 02:15 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-26 16:19 +1100
                Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-27 10:10 -0700
                Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-27 15:22 -0700
            Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-24 13:54 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity bitrex <user@example.net> - 2026-03-18 23:15 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> - 2026-03-19 12:36 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 06:36 -0700
  Re:Surplus electricity Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> - 2026-03-19 10:42 -0400
  Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-19 08:13 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2026-03-19 13:05 -0400
    Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-19 13:51 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 08:04 +0000
  Re: Surplus electricity Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2026-03-20 09:32 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 10:36 -0700
      Re: Surplus electricity Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2026-03-20 13:47 -0700
        Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-20 15:38 -0700
  Re: Surplus electricity Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> - 2026-03-20 22:32 +0000
    Re: Surplus electricity Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 16:39 -0700
    Re: Surplus electricity liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) - 2026-03-21 12:53 +0000
      Re: Surplus electricity john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-21 07:19 -0700

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