Re: energy and mass

From	Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity, sci.electronics.design
Subject	Re: energy and mass
Date	2026-03-16 15:01 +1100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10p7vbk$1kml3$6@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(19 earlier) <10oel9r$mo2r$1@dont-email.me> <tNOcnfrSHZqTajf0nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com> <BqWcnTDwgMuTuSv0nZ2dnZfqnPpg4p2d@giganews.com> <10p5fb3$r5l9$5@dont-email.me> <10p6l4v$177r3$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 16/03/2026 3:01 am, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
> On 3/15/26 06:16, Bill Sloman wrote:
>> On 15/03/2026 2:14 pm, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>> On 03/06/2026 07:47 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>> On 03/06/2026 05:36 AM, Bill Sloman wrote:
>>>>> On 6/03/2026 7:37 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>> Am Dienstag000003, 03.03.2026 um 13:40 schrieb Bill Sloman:
>>>>>>> On 3/03/2026 8:06 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am Sonntag000001, 01.03.2026 um 11:03 schrieb Bill Sloman:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/03/2026 8:26 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am Samstag000028, 28.02.2026 um 14:17 schrieb Bill Sloman:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 28/02/2026 8:03 pm, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Donnerstag000026, 26.02.2026 um 15:05 schrieb Ross 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Finlayson:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/26/2026 02:21 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/02/2026 9:46 pm, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/02/2026 4:02 am, Ross Finlayson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/24/2026 03:40 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/23/2026 12:49 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What, you thought Boltzmann constant was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purely physical constant?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_constant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As of the latest revision of the SI, Boltzmann's 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is just another conversion factor between units.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no longer any physical content to it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Boltzmann constant is provided to you in a little
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> table.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another table tells me that there are 5280 feet to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mile,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Boltzmann constant is in the little leaflet in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every book on thermodynamics.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Often it's the only "physical constant" given.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The SI units are much separated from the relevant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> empirical domains these days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, "defining" the second as about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cesium atom its hyperfine transition, and "defining"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the meter as that according to the "defined" speed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of light, results all that's defined not derived,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the System Internationale units that we all know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and love simply don't say much about the objective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality of the quantities.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing that you have the wit to understand?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The are a lot of steps between the optical spectrum of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cloud of cesium
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atoms and the frequency of an oscillator running slowly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough for you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to count transitions, but there is no question
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objective reality of every last one of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eh, the basis for the SI is the defined value
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a -microwave- frequency of the Cesium atom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   From an engineering point of view a Cesium clock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is nothing but a stabilised quartz clock.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "nothing but" ignores the fact that the output of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cesium clock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has a much more stable frequency than the outputs of regular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quartz
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clocks. That's why people pay more money for them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, it is a stibilised quartz clock.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought you were proud of being an engineer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so I adapted the description.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Optical frequency standards do exist,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as Strontium lattice 'clocks' for example,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but so far they are frequecy standards only,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not yet clocks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_lattice_clock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Like I said, they are called 'clocks'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but for the time being they are only frequency standards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (precisely because they cannot be used yet to stabilise a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quartz clock)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The process of turning a frequency standard into a clock is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fairly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complicated but the devices are already sold as clocks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  From an engineering point of view that is just being able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> count.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Time is a universal parameter of most theories of mechanics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the useful ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But time must be a LOCAL parameter ONLY!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is total bunk to assume, that an 'external' clock would
>>>>>>>>>>>> exist, which synchronizes everything in the universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Clocks don't exist to synchronise anything. They can be part 
>>>>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>>>> local system which synchronises some local action to an event
>>>>>>>>>>> which has been observed from that location. Granting the bulk of
>>>>>>>>>>> the universe is expanding away from any given point at a speed
>>>>>>>>>>> which is increase with time and distance time dilation alone
>>>>>>>>>>> makes the idea of perfect synchronicity untenable.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If nothing synchronizes remote systems, then how could we
>>>>>>>>>> rightfully assume, that remote systems share the same time?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a very convenient  assumption.The big bang theory has the
>>>>>>>>> universe starting to expand from a very small point some 13.8
>>>>>>>>> billion years ago, and what we can see of the observable universe
>>>>>>>>> is consistent with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure, it's convenient.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But is it actually true???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We don't seem to need a different explanation at this point.
>>>>>>> If eventually make some observations that are inconsistent with the
>>>>>>> theory, we'll start looking for a better one, but the big gbang
>>>>>>> theory seems to be true enough for all current practical purposes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nature does not care about what we need.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nature is as nature is, whether we like it or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Big bang theory suffers from a 'little' problem:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> how would you actually create a universe from nothing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nobody said anything about creating it from nothing. The point about
>>>>>>> the theory is that it starts off with a large lump of
>>>>>>> undifferentiated mass- energy that doesn't have any structure that
>>>>>>> links it back to a preceding structure. The early stages of its
>>>>>>> development seem to have been pretty well randomised, and if the
>>>>>>> mechanism that created initial the lump of mass energy was merely 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> collapse of a previously existing universe we'd end up with
>>>>>>> essential;ly the same theory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My own approach was, that time is local and space is 'relative'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To get such a behavior I have searched for something, which would
>>>>>> allow such behavior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is actually possible, if you think about a certain type of
>>>>>> complex numbers and a connection between them, which is also known as
>>>>>> certain type of geometric algebra.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, we need  a system, which allows an imaginary time 'axis' at every
>>>>>> point and a realm perpendicular, which we could call time-like.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The result of my search was a system called 'cliiford algebra Cl_3'
>>>>>> and something called 'complex four vectors' (aka 'bi-quaternions').
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now we have a point, to which a certain axis of time belongs, where
>>>>>> the observer is located.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The observer chooses, of cause, the axis of time, in respect to which
>>>>>> he himself is stable and a material body.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then we have a perpendicular 'hyper-sheet of the present' and in
>>>>>> between the past light cone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The past light cone is what the observer could see, especially in the
>>>>>> night sky.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The interesting part is, that we can 'rotate' the axis of time and
>>>>>> declare stability to an axis of time perpendicular or in opposite
>>>>>> direction to the previous one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now we can assume, that both are possible and that both coexist at 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> same place, while unrecognized.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 'other timelines' define also matter and also a real universe,
>>>>>> which is entirely hidden from sight by the observer mentioned above.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is invisible, but real.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Far better is actually my own approach, which goes like this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I take the 'big bang' as case of a 'white hole'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (That is 'the other side' of a 'black hole'.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This 'white hole' spreads out and creates, what we call 'universe'
>>>>>>>> in which we as human beings live on planet Earth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But 'universe' isn't universal at all and the timeline from big 
>>>>>>>> bang
>>>>>>>> to us isn't the only timeline possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But since we can't observe any of these other universes it is a
>>>>>>> complete waste of time to speculate about their possible existence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Our past is just one of an infinite number of possible timelines,
>>>>>>>> which all connect a big bang with something much later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you need to find a mechanism that lets you explore these other
>>>>>>> timelines before anybody is going to take you seriously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Invisible realms cannot be explored. It it also difficult to enter
>>>>>> such realms, because we are bound to our own 'axis of stability'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be extremely dangerous to leave a certain realm, in which we
>>>>>> share the same axis of time with the environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> If an invisible realm cannot be explored, which implies that it's
>>>>> inhabitants can't explore ours, there's not a lot of point in
>>>>> speculating about it's potential existence.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is more like a HUGE clock with one hand only, that circles 
>>>>>>>> once
>>>>>>>> every ten billion years or so. This 'hand' moves slowly forewards
>>>>>>>> and creates new universes every time it moves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you want to imagine something like that, feel free, but don't
>>>>>>> expect anybody else to be interested. You won't get any research
>>>>>>> grants to support any work you might want to put in to make the idea
>>>>>>> sound less half-witted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I personally think, that this idea of mine is already known
>>>>>> since ages, but hidden from the public, because it would allow 
>>>>>> several
>>>>>> things, out of which huge profits could be generated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like every other goofy sucker for conspiracy theories.
>>>>>
>>>>>> (like e.g. transmutation or time-travel)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But possibly this isn't known.
>>>>>
>>>>> Almost certainly, there isn't anything there to know,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Would be better, but actually I don't know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyhow, in case you are interested, here is my 'book' about this
>>>>>> concept:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Ur3_giuk2l439fxUa8QHX4wTDxBEaM6lOlgVUa0cFU4/edit?usp=sharing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's now 16 years old and today I would write something different. 
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> it's quite ok, anyhow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your idea of what might be ok isn't one that many sane people would
>>>>> share.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now new universes need new stars and those new planet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They might, if they existed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This causes what also regard as true: Growing Earth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The earth doesn't seem to be growing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Earth seemingly grows!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is another story, where the stories told to the public 
>>>>>> apparently
>>>>>> differ from reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To understand 'Growing Earth' is quite difficult, because the few
>>>>>> books about this theory were systematically removed from public eyes.
>>>>>
>>>>> It also conflicts with the concept of the conservation of mass-energy,
>>>>> which underpins modern physics, and modern physics works remarkably 
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But one book from Ott-Christoph Hilgenberg called 'Vom wachsenden
>>>>>> Erdball' is still available online (for free!), but is only available
>>>>>> in German.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a pretty much infinite stock of total nonsense available in
>>>>> print. I have no intention of digging out any of it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There was this one fellow on sci.physics, a regular, years ago,
>>>> who had a similar sort of idea: to basically reflect that
>>>> after the Big Bang hypothesis made for Inflationary Cosmology
>>>> and Expanding Universe, to basically make "Growing Earth"
>>>> as "Balanced Bang", in this sense, the _idea_ itself is
>>>> not really different from other notions of "severe abstractions"
>>>> of "complementary duals", like for example Lagrange's "severe
>>>> abstraction" about energy and Lagrange's "complementary dual"
>>>> about potentials.
>>>>
>>>> I.e., as an idea, it's a thing.
>>>>
>>>> These days, since 2MASS made for an account of that redshift bias
>>>> exists, and, then that JWST has roundly paintcanned ye olde
>>>> "Expanding Universe", i.e. the entire idea that the data after
>>>> Lemaitre and Hubble gave is right out the window, then figuring
>>>> out _why_ and _how_ this can be explained, sort of has an inverse
>>>> to model or "complementary dual", as to why the idea itself of
>>>> something like "Growing Earth" isn't more odd than "Big Bang".
>>>>
>>>> Kind of like "Steady State" and "Frozen State" or along those
>>>> lines, again the "severe abstraction" or "abstraction" on reasoning
>>>> about universals, naturally enough makes a place for "space inversion".
>>>>
>>>> Since modern methods in the sky survey like 2MASS and now JWST have
>>>> really roundly paint-canned Expanding Universe and thus also about
>>>> Inflationary Cosmology, has that "Hubble Tension" is actually
>>>> quite more pronounced than what usual people think, to the point
>>>> of being "absolutely Hubble tense".
>>>
>>> It's becoming more usual now that accounts of "redshift distortion"
>>> are making for an entire new table of values in the data to help
>>> start sorting out which of the old values were off 100%.
>>
>> Red-shift is deduced from spectral lines. That isn't going to be "100% 
>> off". If it is then treated as a purely Doppler shift, and something 
>> else is also affecting the observed wavelength, the recession 
>> velocities deduced from the spectral shift may be wrong. 
> 
> Another mmmh. Red shift for far, far-away galaxies is estimated by
> colorimetry, because there are no recognizable spectral lines. That
> opens up a huge can of worms.

Cite? Gravitational lensing has made a few far,far-away galaxies quite 
bright, and the Lyman-alpha lines ought to be resolvable.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyman_alpha_emitter#Importance_in_cosmology>

says the there are example that were only 200 to 600 million years old
went their emissions set out.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney

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Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-06 09:37 +0100
  Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-07 00:36 +1100
    Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-06 07:47 -0800
      Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-07 17:12 +1100
        Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-07 06:59 -0800
          Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-08 11:33 +1100
            Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-07 19:19 -0800
              Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 01:44 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 08:29 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 12:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 20:04 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-08 20:17 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 00:09 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 07:36 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 09:09 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:17 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-10 23:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:14 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 08:13 +0100
                Re: energy and mass "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2026-03-11 13:50 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 14:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 00:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 16:10 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:07 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 07:11 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 18:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 09:56 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:22 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 12:56 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 23:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 14:16 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:45 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ronnie Pantelakos <ina@snl.gr> - 2026-03-12 17:38 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-12 22:12 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Tathan Nagahama <gagngt@mmatata.jp> - 2026-03-12 22:11 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-13 01:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Cristobal Umehara <be@iu.jp> - 2026-03-13 16:50 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Jairo Pantelakos <soaonjo@iai.gr> - 2026-03-14 13:21 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 16:18 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-14 20:46 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-14 16:59 -0700
                GPS (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 16:23 +0100
                Re: GPS (was: energy and mass) Brock Nakamura <cruan@bknkkror.jp> - 2026-03-14 15:39 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 18:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Virgil Dömötör <rr@egi.hu> - 2026-03-14 17:43 +0000
                Re: GPS (was: energy and mass) Kyndal Zsoldos <odondo@ndzsda.hu> - 2026-03-14 15:52 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 18:37 +0100
                Re: GPS Mikey Santiago <ime@ymsn.pt> - 2026-03-14 19:49 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-15 15:29 +0100
                Re: GPS Frauly Christakos <acrahr@afrafs.gr> - 2026-03-15 14:37 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-15 19:17 +0100
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-15 19:22 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Enmanuel Jacques <cucus@mulneam.fr> - 2026-03-15 20:00 +0000
                GPS (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-15 22:40 +0100
                Re: GPS Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-15 23:06 +0100
                Re: GPS (was: energy and mass) Nestor Rooijakkers <skk@ereno.nl> - 2026-03-16 14:15 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-16 15:37 +0100
                Re: GPS Bernie Gonzalez <inzbi@rol.es> - 2026-03-16 17:13 +0000
                Re: energy and mass athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> - 2026-03-16 11:27 +0000
                Re: energy and mass Shay Hofwegen <gwg@eewyow.nl> - 2026-03-16 17:25 +0000
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 08:08 -0700
                Re: GPS Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-16 10:16 +0100
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 05:26 -0700
                Re: GPS Leopold Bicchieri <deo@rehi.it> - 2026-03-16 14:26 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 18:16 +0100
                Re: GPS Lowen Missiakos <osmi@wlss.gr> - 2026-03-14 17:49 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-14 19:44 +0100
                Re: GPS Ridge Górski <kgie@gigg.pl> - 2026-03-14 19:39 +0000
                Re: GPS Krinden Hoffmann <efne@roeaa.de> - 2026-03-15 14:44 +0000
                GPS (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-16 01:20 +0100
                GPS (was: energy and mass) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-16 01:22 +0100
                Re: GPS (was: energy and mass) Jovanni Rodrigues <iav@ignj.pt> - 2026-03-16 14:00 +0000
                Re: GPS Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2026-03-16 15:26 +0100
                Re: GPS Webster Schuchardt <tcbr@tteue.de> - 2026-03-16 14:33 +0000
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 07:54 -0700
                Re: GPS Hever Ramires <ihme@aermr.pt> - 2026-03-16 17:09 +0000
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 11:08 -0700
                Re: GPS Kile Karolina <oeelka@aili.net> - 2026-03-17 18:05 +0000
                Re: GPS Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 14:44 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 21:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Donel Profeta <aadeafe@nefe.it> - 2026-03-15 15:17 +0000
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 18:45 +0100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-12 10:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-13 10:24 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-14 03:42 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-15 21:42 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 21:50 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-16 08:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:06 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-17 01:14 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 00:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-17 10:34 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 15:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 00:27 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 21:00 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 11:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 11:47 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 15:14 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 07:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 18:11 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 15:07 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-18 23:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 18:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 09:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-19 20:38 +1100
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-19 11:54 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-20 11:59 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-20 15:28 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-22 12:12 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-23 23:05 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-21 16:23 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-19 07:47 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 07:32 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 15:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 10:59 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 11:41 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 13:18 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 23:59 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 07:32 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-09 21:49 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 15:24 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 15:37 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 22:07 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 16:58 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-09 23:26 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 09:25 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 04:33 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 10:45 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:26 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 08:19 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 00:34 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-11 16:10 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:16 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 07:13 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 18:39 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 09:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 10:17 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:42 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 13:03 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 03:50 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-12 23:23 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-12 07:05 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 22:31 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 08:38 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 08:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 00:28 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:45 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 03:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-10 10:13 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 16:51 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-10 14:51 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-10 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-11 17:02 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 11:20 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 01:00 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-11 18:45 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-11 12:48 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-12 16:33 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 11:51 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 04:09 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-12 21:58 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-13 17:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-13 22:05 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-13 14:55 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-13 21:29 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-15 03:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-15 21:57 +0100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-15 14:18 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 17:24 -0700
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-15 18:10 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 05:14 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 01:52 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 08:04 -0700
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-16 08:32 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:24 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 10:49 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 00:43 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 15:35 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 03:33 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 17:39 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 06:36 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-17 20:41 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 21:10 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-18 11:37 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 23:29 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Maciej Woźniak <mlwozniak@wp.pl> - 2026-03-18 13:37 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 07:48 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 03:58 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:47 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-17 21:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 15:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-18 13:05 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 23:25 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 14:41 +1100
      Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-14 20:14 -0700
        Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-15 16:16 +1100
          Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 06:58 -0700
            Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 08:13 -0700
          Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-03-15 17:01 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 09:39 -0700
              Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-15 09:55 -0700
              Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 15:16 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 05:21 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 02:10 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 10:56 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 11:29 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:44 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 07:57 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 04:25 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:35 +1100
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-16 15:01 +1100
              Re: energy and mass Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> - 2026-03-16 11:00 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 02:18 +1100
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-16 08:34 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-16 11:02 -0700
                Re: energy and mass john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> - 2026-03-17 07:20 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 08:12 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 06:56 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 14:47 -0700
                Re: energy and mass nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2026-03-16 22:24 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-17 18:49 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 08:03 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 04:37 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-17 14:43 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 16:05 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 07:39 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-18 09:07 -0700
          Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-18 09:11 +0100
            Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-18 21:28 +1100
              Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-19 12:10 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-20 01:35 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 07:44 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-19 07:52 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 09:42 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 09:58 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-20 10:28 -0700
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-20 11:00 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-21 02:54 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-22 10:31 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-22 22:21 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-23 09:21 +0100
                Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-23 22:31 +1100
                Re: energy and mass Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2026-03-23 08:11 -0700
                Re: energy and mass The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2026-03-19 11:17 -0700
    Re: energy and mass Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2026-03-08 09:53 +0100
      Re: energy and mass Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> - 2026-03-09 02:07 +1100

csiph-web