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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #18327

Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet?

From Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet?
Date 2012-12-29 01:01 +0100
Organization 1&1 Internet AG
Message-ID <5365015.aUjuCcv3Ms@sunwukong.fritz.box> (permalink)
References (13 earlier) <50db89d8$0$6575$9b4e6d93@newsspool3.arcor-online.net> <1576161.7924UsucXs@sunwukong.fritz.box> <kbifqi$sfk$1@dont-email.me> <1679421.j6LZisYWN8@sunwukong.fritz.box> <kbl6h1$6kf$2@dont-email.me>

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rickman wrote:
> It doesn't matter when or where.  The point is that solar PV has been
> predicted to be cost effective "just around the bend" but the bend
> never seems to arrive.  I haven't seen the numbers behind the talk, so
> I can't say what has happened.

Don't know.  When I installed a PV system on the roof of my father's 
house about a decade ago, it certainly wasn't "around the bent".

> I'm still confused about your numbers.  Here is what I get from a
> previous post by you.
> 
> German Coal - 0.056€/kWh
> Wind - 0.0492€/kWh on-shore 0.035€/kWh off-shore
> PV - 0.113€/kWh next year
> 
> Looks to me like PV is at a minimum twice the cost of anything else. 
> So why is PV so good?

That's German PV.  Our weather in south Germany is not that bad as in 
northern Germany (where it is rainy and windy all year long, which is 
why wind energy there is much better).  In good climate, you harvest 
twice as much, and in a desert or similar, 3 times as much (if you have 
clouds and rain for a month per year, you don't lose much).

> As to your numbers above, what is PV at 0.113€/kWh vs "net price" at
> 0.17€/kWh?  The gallon of gas was just a way to set a price point for
> oil that was more easily understood by the audience (this was high
> school).  It was not intended to compare as a source of energy for
> making electricity.  So no need to figure in the complexities of
> turning gas into electric.

But it's not actually that bad.  The gallon of gas is a standard for 
energy prices, and you need to know how many kWh it equates to, if you 
want to know what a reasonable price for a kWh is.

> What is a Wp?

Watt peak.  The peak is quite different from the average.  It's dark at 
night, and in the morning and evening, the panel shows to the wrong 
side.  And there may be clouds.

>> When did you last pay 80¢ per gallon?
> 
> I can't say what is right and what is wrong with your numbers.  I do
> know that the US has no shortage of entrepreneurs who would jump at
> the chance to put PV in the dessert and print money.  Any idea why
> they aren't doing this?

No.  AFAIK, companies like First Solar already build plants in Nevada:

http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/first-solar-sells-50-mw-
nevada-power-plant_100006200/#axzz2GOUuS2Qv

They do make the panels themselves, which means they are probably more 
expensive than the cheap Chinese panels we use in Germany.

The point about these much-hated green subsidies in Germany was that 
they would build a quickly growing market under fairly robust conditions 
- whoever builds a PV power plant knows in advance, and for sure, how 
much money he will get out of the plant for the time the subsidies run.  
The subsidies will be reduced every year to go with progress.

This is sort-of a "Moore's law", where Moore's law is not actually a 
prediction, but a management statement how fast the development pace for 
semiconductor scaling should be.  The German subsidies are setting the 
pace of PV and wind power plant development.  As a consequence, this is 
the primary and most interesting market for that stuff - you know how 
much it grows, you know how much you must reduce the price for next year 
to be able to continue, you know that if you are better than the 
competition, the government will speed up the reduction, so you can kick 
your competition out of the market if you like to (the Chinese did that 
with the German PV industry, which collapsed completely).

This sort of long-term planning by the state is a pretty alien concept 
for America.  As I understand however, First Solar has a 25 year 
contract with the electric grid company, so they do work under similar 
operating conditions - very long-term known revenue - as in Germany.

> The primary places I've seen PV in the US are on rooftops of server
> farms like Google.  I believe this is done primarily as PR, letting
> them say they are going "green".

Yes.  I also have the impression that outside of the silicon valley, all 
these modern ideas about going "green" are similar to becoming gay or 
starting to believe in the flying spaghetti monster, instead of being a 
straight, god-feering fellow.

> Your numbers I quoted above don't show that.  How do you figure PV has
> achieved price parity?  Are you leaving out some of the costs somehow?
> Do you numbers include the amortized cost?  Do they include subsidies?

I omitted the clouds.  We don't have deserts in Germany, we don't even 
have decent weather.  You have deserts in the US, and they are at 
spitting distance from the energy hungry west coast.

On a good day, my PV makes 9kWh.  On an average day, it makes 3kWh.  We 
have about 1000 full sunny hours per year in south Germany; the 
difference between average and peak shows the potential.

If you like a map, take e.g. this one:

http://www.energieinfo.de/eglossar/sonneneinstrahlung.html

They don't go into any further details above 2000 full sunny hours per 
year.

>> So I guess the US has to wait until PV electricity is either 3 times
>> cheaper than fossil energy (which it probably already is), or when
>> the price level settled.
> 
> The US and no one else has any reason to wait.  If/when PV become cost
> competitive with other technologies it will be adopted.  In some cases
> it will be used sooner because of PR or political reasons.  Can you
> provide sources for your numbers?  Sources that provide adequate
> detail on how they got their numbers?

Googling for complete packages is pretty easy in Germany... e.g. this 
one:

http://www.solarladen.de/pv_komplettpakete.php

As I said, Germany has a well-established market for these things.

They are slightly more expensive than others I found, they want 1.2k€ 
per 1kWp, not just 1.1k€; they use German branded AC converters, which 
are still quite popular, and have established a very good reputation.  
These are all still "small" things to be mounted on roof-tops or 
whatever unused wasteland you find.

When the subsidy program started, at about .5€/kWh, the break-even point 
was beyond 15 years, it's now just a bit below 10 years at .11€/kWh for 
big plants (big plants are somewhat cheaper than the examples, but not 
that much).  Due to the guaranteed price, and since all parts have 20 
years warranty, the banks are more than happy to give a low-interest 
rate credit.

-- 
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://bernd-paysan.de/

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Thread

any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-17 02:26 -0800
  Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-12-17 08:37 -0800
    Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:27 -0800
      Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-12-19 21:27 -1000
  Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-12-17 12:20 -0500
    Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:27 -0800
  Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Frank Thomason <Frank@Thomason.com> - 2012-12-17 13:34 -0500
    Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:28 -0800
      Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Frank Thomason <Frank@Thomason.com> - 2012-12-20 08:54 -0500
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 20:03 -0800
  Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-17 18:52 -0500
    Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:26 -0800
  Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-17 18:00 -0800
    Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:16 -0800
      Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-19 21:43 -0800
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 23:50 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-20 02:05 -0800
  Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-18 05:12 -0800
    Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-12-18 10:24 -0800
    Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-12-18 19:53 +0000
      Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-18 15:46 -0500
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-18 22:41 +0100
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:20 -0800
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-18 23:31 -0800
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-18 23:57 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 02:45 -0800
            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-12-19 20:41 +0100
              Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:23 -0800
            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-19 21:01 +0100
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            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:22 -0800
            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-19 18:27 -0800
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                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-20 01:43 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 17:51 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 20:07 -0800
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                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-24 16:24 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-12-25 03:26 +0000
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-26 17:30 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-25 09:49 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-26 17:44 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:22 -0800
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:18 -0800
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2012-12-23 11:57 -0500
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 14:29 -0500
      Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-18 23:24 -0800
      Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:18 -0800
    Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:17 -0800
      Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 16:26 -0500
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 13:29 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 17:11 -0500
            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 23:45 -0800
              Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 17:59 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 20:22 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-21 12:59 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 21:54 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 00:59 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 22:23 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 01:48 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 16:34 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-21 13:55 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 16:59 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-21 15:39 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 18:43 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-21 15:50 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 19:01 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 22:05 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 21:57 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 01:00 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 22:25 -0800
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 23:44 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-19 23:46 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-12-20 13:04 +0100
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 18:18 -0500
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-12-20 14:40 +0000
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-20 19:42 +0100
            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-21 13:01 -0800
              Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 16:36 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-21 13:46 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-23 20:02 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-23 21:28 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-23 21:58 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 22:26 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-12-24 14:46 +0000
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-21 23:45 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 18:42 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-22 01:23 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 14:23 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-12-23 16:02 -0600
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-24 00:51 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 20:29 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 23:01 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 18:23 -0500
            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 23:05 -0800
              Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-25 09:40 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-26 00:20 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-26 23:07 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-27 21:07 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 12:48 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 16:42 -0500
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 20:24 -0800
            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2012-12-21 13:24 -0800
              The huge Gavino off topic thread  was: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 16:57 -0500
                Re: The huge Gavino off topic thread  was: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 23:13 -0800
                Re: The huge Gavino off topic thread was: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 00:43 -0800
                Re: The huge Gavino off topic thread was: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 10:34 -0500
                Re: The huge Gavino off topic thread was: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 14:28 -0800
              Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 22:37 -0800
              Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 22:51 -0800
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2012-12-20 08:27 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-12-20 18:44 +0000
            Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-20 21:37 +0100
              Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 22:34 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 01:47 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 23:18 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-24 15:53 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 14:26 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-25 00:09 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 15:29 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-26 10:18 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-27 00:35 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-27 02:25 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-27 21:13 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-27 23:06 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-28 01:24 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-28 23:39 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-29 00:32 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-29 01:05 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-29 10:20 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 11:03 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 16:50 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-28 02:37 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-28 09:15 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 11:15 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-29 01:01 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 15:52 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-30 23:41 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-31 11:20 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-31 18:21 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-31 15:41 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-01 03:32 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-02 01:46 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 22:36 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-01-08 08:25 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-08 12:46 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-08 11:38 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-01-09 08:19 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-09 17:52 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-09 19:45 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-10 17:41 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 18:29 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 09:29 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 14:42 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 18:25 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 14:55 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-22 17:43 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-12-31 01:38 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-12-31 02:54 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-05 03:17 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-08 21:23 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-10 03:44 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-10 18:03 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-11 02:52 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 17:11 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 18:30 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-13 22:54 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 09:30 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 14:42 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-14 15:58 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-15 02:02 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 15:00 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-22 16:57 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-22 17:21 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 17:37 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Jason Damisch <jasondamisch@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-14 16:13 -0800
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-14 11:10 +0000
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 09:50 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 09:55 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-14 09:12 -0600
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-14 22:09 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 16:17 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-14 21:20 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 16:26 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-15 02:31 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-15 00:15 -0500
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-17 02:04 +0100
                Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 14:57 -0800
          Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 23:15 -0800
      Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-12-20 17:33 -0800
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-12-21 17:09 -0500
        Re: any misc chip desktop pc yet? the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2012-12-23 22:46 -0800

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