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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #29508

Re: Losing my religion(?)

From Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net>
Newsgroups comp.sys.mac.system
Subject Re: Losing my religion(?)
Date 2012-08-15 10:52 -0700
Organization lined up neatly
Message-ID <k0gnk2$59c$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink)
References (8 earlier) <c5pq6u6z2a.fsf@ethel.the.log> <130820122332101451%star@sky.net> <a90ho6Fbi6U1@mid.individual.net> <slrnk2m50n.1trd.g.kreme@mbp55.local> <a90nsaFihnU1@mid.individual.net>

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On 2012-08-15 04:46:00 +0000, Rich Gray said:

> Lewis wrote:
>> In message <a90ho6Fbi6U1@mid.individual.net>
>> Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>>> TextEdit is a perfect example.  It's a Swiss Army knife, which I make quite
>>> a bit of use of, but more often than not, as a *viewer*.  One of my most
>>> common sins is typing into the wrong window when working in many windows.
>>> With Auto Save, this immediately corrupts the original file.
>> 
>> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
>> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
>> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.
> 
> The file is no longer correct.  Corrupted is a reasonable expression 
> for invalidated content.

The original, unedited file is not there anymore.  It may be recovered, 
possibly, via Versions, but if you go look at your filesystem, it's not 
there.  There's a new and incorrect file.  "corrupted" is a reasonable 
word for it.

>  If you don't like it, pick another.  The file is now wrong and will be 
> until the error is noticed (perhaps spectacularly) and corrected.  The 
> fact that the file is recoverable does not change the fact that it has 
> been made wrong.

The real danger is that the file may *not* be recoverable.  The 
versions database is stored in an invisible database at the root of 
that filesystem.  If you move the file to another drive, the version 
history is lost and the file before the unintended edits is *not* 
recoverable.

>> This would be a good reason to have keep the file locking in 10.8.
> 
> It does seem like explicit locking & unlocking (without having to jump 
> through Finder hoops) would be good.  But that would probably be too 
> much for the simpleton environment Apple is trying to create.  :/  The 
> two week auto-lock is strange...  (I can screw up a lot of stuff in 
> that time!! ;)

*immediate* auto-locking whenever the file is closed would be a better 
solution.  If you open a file, you need to explicitly say "okay - I 
*do* mean to edit this!" before you are allowed to edit it.  Every 
time.  The assumption shouldn't necessarily be "just because I've 
opened this file, I intend to edit it and save my changes".  Two weeks 
was just some oddball compromise between some folks over at Apple.

Autosave and Versions are a *good* thing.  They're just not quite 
finished.  Locking needs to be improved, and transparency as to what's 
happening needs to be improved, as does the issue of keeping the 
revision database attached to the file, if possible.  It's too easy to 
lose your revision history right now, and it happens without warning or 
hope of recovery.

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Thread

Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-12 17:06 -0400
  Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-12 19:55 -0400
    Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-12 20:24 -0400
      Re: Losing my religion(?) isw <isw@witzend.com> - 2012-08-12 23:19 -0700
        Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-13 03:06 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-13 11:42 -0700
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-13 12:11 -0700
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-13 12:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:46 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 12:32 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:32 +0000
              Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-13 16:08 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-13 18:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 23:32 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-14 23:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 03:14 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:51 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 07:52 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-15 18:06 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 00:44 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-15 01:04 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 15:35 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 10:45 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 13:59 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:38 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 06:11 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-15 00:46 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 08:04 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 09:24 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 10:52 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 14:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 12:01 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 15:42 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 22:40 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 09:56 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 22:57 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 03:28 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 03:29 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 20:33 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 22:50 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 22:27 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 01:32 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-16 09:14 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-13 20:21 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 06:13 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:56 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 12:19 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:37 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 17:52 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:07 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 22:55 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:17 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:15 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:50 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-15 18:15 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:49 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:18 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:08 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 15:45 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 10:14 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:05 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-15 10:26 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 07:20 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) sbt <dogbreath@chaseabone.com.invalid> - 2012-08-14 08:51 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 09:31 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 10:09 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:19 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 12:36 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:16 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 08:58 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:39 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-14 14:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 14:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 13:19 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 12:05 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 15:11 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 13:12 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:17 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 18:08 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-16 09:37 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 18:49 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 10:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-17 16:52 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 16:19 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 16:54 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-17 20:13 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 18:09 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-18 06:34 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-18 18:40 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 13:19 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 14:46 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 16:45 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 15:59 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 17:05 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-18 13:49 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 16:02 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-18 19:09 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 22:05 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-19 05:25 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-19 13:42 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-19 03:39 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 17:19 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:43 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:41 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-15 01:05 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 08:02 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-15 15:36 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 04:27 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-16 06:35 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 09:26 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 13:02 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 12:57 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-16 15:49 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-17 04:57 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 09:36 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-16 14:43 -0400
                Auto-Save, Ask to save changes, etc (Re: Losing my religion(?)) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 12:31 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 20:21 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-16 03:49 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 12:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:28 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:04 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:26 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 22:37 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:28 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:22 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:10 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 16:17 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:06 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:23 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2012-08-15 09:50 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-14 09:39 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:28 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 19:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 12:36 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:04 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 21:33 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 20:31 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-16 13:35 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:31 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:28 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 07:16 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 12:50 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:29 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 15:14 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 17:52 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:14 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 19:36 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:58 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 21:23 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 07:58 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 04:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 09:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:34 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:41 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:03 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:44 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 20:25 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 00:03 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:13 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 00:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 07:19 +0200
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:49 -0600
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 05:51 +0000
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 11:10 +0200
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:46 -0600
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:30 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 16:15 -0600
        Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 08:03 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-13 08:54 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 14:15 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-08-13 09:22 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 13:25 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-08-13 15:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 20:38 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-13 20:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 21:47 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 11:01 +0200
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-15 19:57 -0400
        Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-14 18:17 -0400

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