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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #29481

Re: Losing my religion(?)

From Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.sys.mac.system
Subject Re: Losing my religion(?)
Date 2012-08-15 00:46 -0400
Organization dis
Message-ID <a90nsaFihnU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <50295eb0$0$1694$c3e8da3$dbd57e7@news.astraweb.com> <c5pq6u6z2a.fsf@ethel.the.log> <130820122332101451%star@sky.net> <a90ho6Fbi6U1@mid.individual.net> <slrnk2m50n.1trd.g.kreme@mbp55.local>

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Lewis wrote:
> In message <a90ho6Fbi6U1@mid.individual.net>
>    Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
>> TextEdit is a perfect example.  It's a Swiss Army knife, which I make quite
>> a bit of use of, but more often than not, as a *viewer*.  One of my most
>> common sins is typing into the wrong window when working in many windows.
>> With Auto Save, this immediately corrupts the original file.
>
> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.

The file is no longer correct.  Corrupted is a reasonable expression for 
invalidated content.  If you don't like it, pick another.  The file is now 
wrong and will be until the error is noticed (perhaps spectacularly) and 
corrected.  The fact that the file is recoverable does not change the fact 
that it has been made wrong.

>> In Lion, I can
>> close the window with no warning given at all.  ML ameliorates this
>> somewhat, if I understand it, by allowing a rollback when one closes the
>> window.  But until the time the file is recovered, it is WRONG.  Not good if
>> it is a running script or some other form of shared document that others
>> might access in the meantime.
>
> Aha! Finally a valid criticism of AutoSave! I would offer that the odds
> of opening a script in Lion that was not 'locked' and accidentally
> making a change that was saved without your knowledge is a pretty slim
> chance, all in all.

As I understand it, Auto Save is always in effect, but versioning only works 
on HFS+ volumes.  I do a lot of stuff on shared, non-HFS+ drives.  Seems 
like there is much opportunity for unrecoverable corr^w inadvertent changes 
if one uses [M]L apps against such shared files.

The NAS that I access does have a Time Machine like capability.  Every 
directory had a hidden .snapshot directory off of it, containing hourly, 
daily & weekly images of files, much as TM does.  Making saves produce a new 
snapshot (instead of time) and throwing a TM style GUI on it would have been 
much more to my liking as a way for OS X to go.

> This would be a good reason to have keep the file locking in 10.8.

It does seem like explicit locking & unlocking (without having to jump 
through Finder hoops) would be good.  But that would probably be too much 
for the simpleton environment Apple is trying to create.  :/  The two week 
auto-lock is strange...  (I can screw up a lot of stuff in that time!! ;)

> I'm not sure how this works in 10.8, but I know that in Script Editor, it does "the right thing".

I'm curious.  What would that be?  If it auto saves, the script is co^w 
wrong until recovered.  Computers are a lot less forgiving than other humans.

Perhaps the problem here is you don't have this kind of situation on an iOS 
device, because you don't share files in this manner.  It's strictly a 
single user environment and files exist only in tight association with their 
apps.  Yet this is the model Apple is pushing into OS X.

>> It is this disregard for the sanctity of originals which I have a huge
>> problem with.  Yes, save versions of explicitly saved/saved
>> as/duplicated/whatever files.  Auto save to a DRAFT file!!
>
> I do prefer how vim manages recovery files, but that would be a terrible
> interface for your average user. The way autosave works in 10.7 and 10.8
> is the way that it should work because that is what is best for the
> non-geek users (most everyone). Us geeks have to be aware of things like
> this and maybe take a couple of steps to prevent these issues.

Another source of inadvertent keystrokes is my brain not switching correctly 
between vi & GUI typing.  I've typed things like [esc]0g into GUI windows 
more times than I care to admit.  ;)

> For myself, I can honestly say that I have never edited a script in
> TextEdit and that the possibility of doing so has never occurred to me.

OK, my example is a little unusual.  (Most often I am using vi. ;) 
Substitute any process that would be accessing a text file at the same time 
one is LOOKING at it with TextEdit.

I don't use Numbers, but what would happen if one were viewing a spreadsheet 
on a shared server and inadvertently changed something?  What would stop 
everyone in the department from getting the wrong data until the file was 
restored??

>> This thread is sort of a rant, me taking an opportunity to express sadness
>> that Apple seems to be making the OS X world be dummy-friendly.  I
>> understand the motive, $$market$$.  I'm just sad about it because I *really*
>> do think my MBP(5,5) is the best computer I've ever owned.  All other
>> laptops look & feel like cheap junk compared to a unibody.  SL is IMHO the
>> best OS, because it wasn't dummified.  Maybe there needs to be one more pref
>> in OS X, to set User Level.
>
> I prefer 10.8 to 10.6, but I prefer 10.6 to 10.7.

Yeah, I wish half my fleet could wasn't stuck going no further than 10.7.  I 
do feel that Apple will probably work this save stuff out eventually, but 
I've got machines which will never get to enjoy that.  :(

Cheers!
Rich

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Thread

Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-12 17:06 -0400
  Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-12 19:55 -0400
    Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-12 20:24 -0400
      Re: Losing my religion(?) isw <isw@witzend.com> - 2012-08-12 23:19 -0700
        Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-13 03:06 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-13 11:42 -0700
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-13 12:11 -0700
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-13 12:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:46 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 12:32 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:32 +0000
              Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-13 16:08 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-13 18:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 23:32 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-14 23:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 03:14 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:51 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 07:52 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-15 18:06 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 00:44 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-15 01:04 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 15:35 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 10:45 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 13:59 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:38 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 06:11 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-15 00:46 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 08:04 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 09:24 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 10:52 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 14:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 12:01 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 15:42 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 22:40 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 09:56 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 22:57 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 03:28 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 03:29 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 20:33 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 22:50 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 22:27 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 01:32 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-16 09:14 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-13 20:21 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 06:13 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:56 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 12:19 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:37 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 17:52 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:07 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 22:55 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:17 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:15 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:50 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-15 18:15 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:49 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:18 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:08 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 15:45 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 10:14 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:05 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-15 10:26 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 07:20 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) sbt <dogbreath@chaseabone.com.invalid> - 2012-08-14 08:51 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 09:31 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 10:09 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:19 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 12:36 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:16 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 08:58 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:39 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-14 14:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 14:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 13:19 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 12:05 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 15:11 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 13:12 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:17 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 18:08 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-16 09:37 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 18:49 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 10:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-17 16:52 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 16:19 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 16:54 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-17 20:13 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 18:09 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-18 06:34 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-18 18:40 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 13:19 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 14:46 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 16:45 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 15:59 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 17:05 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-18 13:49 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 16:02 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-18 19:09 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 22:05 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-19 05:25 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-19 13:42 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-19 03:39 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 17:19 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:43 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:41 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-15 01:05 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 08:02 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-15 15:36 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 04:27 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-16 06:35 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 09:26 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 13:02 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 12:57 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-16 15:49 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-17 04:57 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 09:36 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-16 14:43 -0400
                Auto-Save, Ask to save changes, etc (Re: Losing my religion(?)) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 12:31 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 20:21 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-16 03:49 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 12:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:28 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:04 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:26 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 22:37 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:28 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:22 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:10 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 16:17 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:06 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:23 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2012-08-15 09:50 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-14 09:39 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:28 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 19:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 12:36 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:04 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 21:33 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 20:31 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-16 13:35 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:31 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:28 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 07:16 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 12:50 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:29 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 15:14 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 17:52 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:14 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 19:36 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:58 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 21:23 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 07:58 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 04:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 09:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:34 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:41 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:03 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:44 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 20:25 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 00:03 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:13 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 00:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 07:19 +0200
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:49 -0600
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 05:51 +0000
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 11:10 +0200
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:46 -0600
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:30 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 16:15 -0600
        Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 08:03 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-13 08:54 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 14:15 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-08-13 09:22 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 13:25 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-08-13 15:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 20:38 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-13 20:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 21:47 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 11:01 +0200
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-15 19:57 -0400
        Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-14 18:17 -0400

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