Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system

Subject	Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system
Newsgroups	comp.lang.misc
References	(9 earlier) <m23713rlss.fsf@despina.home> <rJ7qC.304$rA1.23@fx34.am4> <m2y3iurg9s.fsf@despina.home> <foaqC.14911$8G7.12649@fx36.am4> <m2h8pir9a7.fsf@despina.home>
From	bartc <bc@freeuk.com>
Message-ID	<AJeqC.8794$0g.3067@fx06.am4> (permalink)
Organization	virginmedia.com
Date	2018-03-14 19:28 +0000

Show all headers | View raw

On 14/03/2018 15:01, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
> bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> 
>> On 14/03/2018 12:30, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
>>> bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>> On Windows, I've only seem them associated with C compilers, if they
>>>> even have one.
>>>
>>> GNU make is a stand alone program.
>>
>> So why does every C compiler I've seen come with its own version of 'make'?
> 
> You're living in a fantasy-land.
> GNU gcc is not delivered with any make.
> clang is not delivered with any make.

This is part of what makes C, gnu, gcc and everything else that comes 
from Unix, Linux whatever so confusing. And exasperating.

Is something part of the OS, is it part of C, or part of the compiler? 
Is is standard C, or a gnu C?

I remember downloading gcc for windows (called mingw), and complaining 
that it had some major part missing: standard headers, or a linker or 
something.

Apparently, that wasn't a problem at all; after all I downloaded a 
/compiler/, a compiler is what I got, and a compiler doesn't include 
anything else.

Meanwhile, every other C compiler for Windows is self-contained with 
everything needed to turn .c files to .exe files (except perhaps a 
reliable way to run make).

But what gets me is that very strange attitude that comes with any 
program originating from *nix.

> make is a POSIX standard tool!
> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904975/utilities/make.html
> You can assume it is present on the system, so you can provide POSIX
> makefiles and be confident that the users will be able to compile your
> programs.

What does that mean?

If I type 'make' on Windows, it usually says 'file not found'.

> No, but I can blame you for using MS-Windows!  DUH!  Don't!
> I mean the reason why you shouldn't use MS-Windows is because it's a
> poor POSIX platform.

What's POSIX got to do with anything with anything being discussed?

But clearly, it sounds like something that originated in Unix, that 
might have a been good fit for how Unix works, but a poor one for Windows.

As it happens, I didn't choose Windows, my customers did, because it in 
the early 90s is was very easy to buy Windows machines off the shelf, 
completing with fully working peripherals, and much harder with Unix 
machines.

And also easier to run additional software, not just mine. Or to 
anything really because everyone had them.

But I don't remember having any build problems under Windows that 
necessitated my requiring the use of makefiles or make utilities.

>> No matter how 'simple' you think it is, it is still a language, one
>> that is incompatible with any other, and one that needs a special
>> interpreter to be able to use.
> 
> It's a standard tool.

It's one that I've never used nor needed. And I was always creating 
applications up to, and beyond, the capacities of the machine I was 
developing for, so it's not like they were too small for them to need make.

>> How do you build 'make'?
> 
> You use the previous version of make and a C compiler.

And you do the same for that 'A' language.

> How do you build your C compiler?

It's written in my language M. The compiler for M is written in my 
interpreted language Q. The bytecode compiler and interpreter for Q is 
written in M.

If I want someone else to build it, I transpile from M to C, do some 
special processing which puts the sources (and support files such as 
standard headers needed to run it, not build it) into one .c source file.

Then people build it just like they might do hello.c. No make needed.

>> This is completely typical of my experience with make files. (This
>> makefile is here: https://pastebin.com/raw/Qz8QAiuS. It certainly
>> looks like a language to me.)
> 
> 
> Use a unix system!

Look, the problem we're trying to solve is very simple: what subsets of 
the supplied .c files need to be compiled to build the required set of 
binaries.

Because certain people insist on encoding this info in make-file syntax, 
some of us have to take the drastic step of throwing away our current 
OS, and all the software and know-how built up with them, just because 
of of this minor point?

Remember the other part of the problem is trying to build software on 
Windows. If there is no Windows, there is no point.

OK, I'll throw down this challenge: access the Tiny C/Github [actually 
http://repo.or.cz/tinycc.git], and write me a batch file, to run in the 
same directory as the supplied makefile, that will let me build TCC for 
Windows, in a configurations that targets Windows (and say x64).

If makefiles are so ludicrously simple, it should be a piece of cake.

> You have so many choices: linux, freebsd, openbsd, darwin, illumos, etc.

That's part of the problem.

> I've compiled linux on an old Pentium laptop (13 hours), and on a new
> Athlon system (5 minutes). (written in C).

How many Loc? I've got a version somewhere that is 21Mloc, but I've seen 
a video that says only 5% of it is compiled for any one configuration.

So that's 1Mloc in 5 minutes for your best timing, which brings it in at 
about 17Klps. Not too terrible (and we don't how many lines are 
repeatedly compiled as headers, nor whether that 5% excluded lines that 
are conditional code if false brances, but still need to be scanned; 
it's a C thing).

(I don't know where to start in building those sources, how to verify 
any results, nor how to test it. It's a problem in information.)

> Long compilation times are also influenced by the language; for example,
> if you use a lot of templates in C++ programs, this will take more
> compilation time (templates are executed at compilation time!).

A bad decision of C++ to define so many crucial language features in the 
language itself. Not when people tend to develop those features at 
impractical scales.

-- 
bartc

Thread

Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-01 14:40 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-01 14:55 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-02 21:05 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 01:18 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:03 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:10 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:23 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:28 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:44 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 23:26 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 21:59 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:45 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 10:59 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:20 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:30 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 11:11 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 13:51 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 09:48 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 12:25 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 15:32 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-04 07:52 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-04 08:43 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-05 07:58 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:37 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-07 21:02 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-05 15:29 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system rugxulo@gmail.com - 2018-03-06 18:23 -0800
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 04:54 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-07 00:33 -0600
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 09:55 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-07 17:29 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:39 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 10:44 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:57 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:28 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 22:44 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:47 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 10:23 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 14:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 16:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:28 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 08:59 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 19:21 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 08:08 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-16 11:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 16:45 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-16 16:09 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 18:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 18:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-17 21:37 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 21:00 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-18 11:39 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-18 12:29 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-19 13:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 05:40 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-20 11:05 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 06:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 18:51 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 19:55 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-23 18:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 20:13 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-24 01:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:48 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-26 19:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 22:35 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 12:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:49 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 18:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 19:33 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 20:35 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:10 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:47 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-27 00:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-30 19:55 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:49 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:04 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-23 21:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 11:22 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 12:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:15 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:36 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 14:52 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 11:06 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-14 16:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 09:00 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 12:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 11:18 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-15 06:29 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 20:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-17 11:51 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 06:31 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-20 17:14 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 07:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 01:38 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 20:05 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-25 16:55 +0100
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:39 +0100

csiph-web