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Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system

Subject Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system
Newsgroups comp.lang.misc
References (5 earlier) <p8388p$bn8$2@gioia.aioe.org> <p86vs7$iq$1@dont-email.me> <p8act5$aj4$2@gioia.aioe.org> <9K6qC.684$hq2.22@fx42.am4> <m23713rlss.fsf@despina.home>
From bartc <bc@freeuk.com>
Message-ID <rJ7qC.304$rA1.23@fx34.am4> (permalink)
Organization virginmedia.com
Date 2018-03-14 11:30 +0000

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On 14/03/2018 10:30, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
> bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:

>> (I don't use makefiles because I don't think any of my C compilers
>> have a working version. Or if they do, it invariably reports some
>> error or other a few lines into the makefile, and I won't have a clue
>> how to fix it. While my other languages don't have such a concept.)
> 
> You don't know what make and makefiles are.  It's not a "C concept"!

So, where does the program to run the makefile come from?

On Windows, I've only seem them associated with C compilers, if they 
even have one.

> makefiles are just scripts (bash or sh or other, depending on the SHELL
> variable), but structured into chunks executed to transform some input
> files into output files.  Those dependencies rules are written:
> 
> 
>      outputfile…  :  inputfile…
>           shell command…
> 
> 
> The problem with writing scripts (be it bat or sh or other) to build
> systems, is that they're not efficient for iterative development, when
> you modify only one or a few source files.  The scripts will recompile
> everything from the start, which may take several minutes or even hours.

I've seen makefiles used for the most trivial of projects. And actually, 
a lot of the time you have an extra level of script (a 'configure' file) 
to generate the makefile!

Outside of Unix, such scripts won't work, the makefiles tend to assume 
specific compilers, and even the compilers may fail to run the makefile.

(See CPython project on Github; they have an 18Kloc configure file, and 
1.7Kloc 'makefile.pre.in' I guess other makefiles are generated as it 
goes. For all that, it is generally acknowledged this doesn't work on 
Windows, and they provide instead a solution that relies on MSVC and 
Visual studio. And Git. And SVN. And MSBUILD. And then it still didn't 
work when I followed the instructions to the letter.

CPython isn't that big a program, so what is the problem?)

> By declaring the dependencies between inputs and outputs, with  commands
> to perform the transformation, make is able to avoid useless work, by
> executing only the commands strictly needed to update the target after
> the sources are modified.

Is it necessary to invent a whole new language just for that purpose?

A project is already written in some language A and you are reasonably 
enough expected to have a tool that can compile A.

With a makefile, the project now effectively is written in language B as 
well, and you need a compatible tool that will run B. (I understand 
makefiles vary in syntax across different compilers for A, so that a 
makefile that works for any implementation of A is harder.)

With configure scripts, the project is effectively written in yet a 
third language! Some use M4 as well as Bash.

If there are any special requirements, then just specify them in English 
(as well as a makefile, if you have to supply one).

Programmers are quite capable of knocking up their own script if they 
have to, using a language that they know intimately, is available, that 
they already know works, and that they can debug and maintain.

 > you modify only one or a few source files.  The scripts will recompile
 > everything from the start, which may take several minutes or even hours.

This is a separate problem that needs to be investigated. Why are they 
taking minutes and hours? Is it due to executing all those layers of 
scripts and those thousands of lines of shell commands?

Are the compilers just too slow? What total number of sourcelines are 
involved, and what is the net throughput in lines per second? Are there 
just too many files involved?

[I understand MS' VS used 1.5M files; a 'fast' build was 11 hours; a 
normal one, 60 hours. Here's a simple idea: just write smaller programs!]

It might be a project management problem more than anything else. But 
using incremental builds to hide any inefficiencies may allow such 
problems to build up, at a further cost of extra layers of scripting.


-- 
bartc

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Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-01 14:40 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-01 14:55 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-02 21:05 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 01:18 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:03 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:10 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:23 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:28 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:44 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 23:26 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 21:59 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:45 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 10:59 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:20 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:30 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 11:11 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 13:51 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 09:48 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 12:25 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 15:32 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-04 07:52 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-04 08:43 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-05 07:58 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:37 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-07 21:02 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-05 15:29 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system rugxulo@gmail.com - 2018-03-06 18:23 -0800
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 04:54 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-07 00:33 -0600
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 09:55 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-07 17:29 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:39 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 10:44 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:57 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:28 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 22:44 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:47 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 10:23 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 14:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 16:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:28 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 08:59 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 19:21 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 08:08 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-16 11:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 16:45 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-16 16:09 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 18:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 18:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-17 21:37 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 21:00 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-18 11:39 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-18 12:29 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-19 13:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 05:40 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-20 11:05 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 06:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 18:51 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 19:55 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-23 18:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 20:13 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-24 01:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:48 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-26 19:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 22:35 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 12:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:49 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 18:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 19:33 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 20:35 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:10 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:47 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-27 00:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-30 19:55 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:49 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:04 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-23 21:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 11:22 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 12:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:15 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:36 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 14:52 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 11:06 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-14 16:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 09:00 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 12:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 11:18 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-15 06:29 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 20:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-17 11:51 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 06:31 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-20 17:14 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 07:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 01:38 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 20:05 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-25 16:55 +0100
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:39 +0100

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