Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system

Subject	Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system
Newsgroups	comp.lang.misc
References	(7 earlier) <p8act5$aj4$2@gioia.aioe.org> <9K6qC.684$hq2.22@fx42.am4> <m23713rlss.fsf@despina.home> <rJ7qC.304$rA1.23@fx34.am4> <m2y3iurg9s.fsf@despina.home>
From	bartc <bc@freeuk.com>
Message-ID	<foaqC.14911$8G7.12649@fx36.am4> (permalink)
Organization	virginmedia.com
Date	2018-03-14 14:32 +0000

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On 14/03/2018 12:30, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
> bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:

 >> On Windows, I've only seem them associated with C compilers, if they
 >> even have one.
 >
 > GNU make is a stand alone program.

So why does every C compiler I've seen come with its own version of 'make'?

>> Outside of Unix, such scripts won't work, the makefiles tend to assume
>> specific compilers, and even the compilers may fail to run the
>> makefile.
> 
> Compilers don't run makefiles.  It's the make program that interprets
> the makefile.

I write my own compilers. Specifically, I've written my own C compiler. 
I don't have a make program.

The last thing I want when trying it out on a sample open source 
project, ostensibly written in C, is being unable to compile it because 
the necessary build information - what file goes where - is hidden away 
inside make files and configure scripts, which I can rarely make work. 
See example below.

> Of course, the scripts you write in your makefile should be POSIX
> scripts if you want them to be portable.
> 
> (And who is foolish enough to use MS-Windows in the 3rd millenum!?)

The stuff I do I try to keep independent of the OS so it should be 
irrelevant. Unix applications' source code seem to be a big mountain of 
interdependencies on dozens of utilities, so it's not surprising they 
transfer badly to Windows.

But you can't blame Windows for not having a big pile of dependencies of 
its own that corresponds exactly to the Unix one.

> Indeed it is not. And this is why make is so simple: no new language is
> invented.

No matter how 'simple' you think it is, it is still a language, one that 
is incompatible with any other, and one that needs a special interpreter 
to be able to use.

>> A project is already written in some language A and you are reasonably
>> enough expected to have a tool that can compile A.
> 
> You have a bootstrapping problem: how do you know how to build the tool
> that will build your system?

How do you build 'make'?

> For example, in Common Lisp nowadays we usually use asdf to build
> systems.  The asdf system itself cannot be built with asdf!  It needs to
> be distributed as a single file to be loaded before you can use it to
> build the other systems.
> 
> On the other hand, using a makefile, and a batch Common Lisp compiler,
> you can build your lisp projects without any bootstrapping problem.

I don't know what a 'batch CL compiler' is. But bootstrapping is anyway 
a separate subject, and what that doesn't really apply here.

(A few years ago, I decided to make some of my programs, written in my 
languages, available to others to compile from source. But I chose to 
generate C source files, and each program was a single source file.

The only requirement was a C compiler. No make or bash or anything else. 
And C was chosen because compilers for it are ubiquitous.)

>> With a makefile, the project now effectively is written in language B
>> as well, and you need a compatible tool that will run B. (I understand
>> makefiles vary in syntax across different compilers for A, so that a
>> makefile that works for any implementation of A is harder.)
> 
> No, you are crazy.  make doesn't know anything about compilers,
> makefiles are just plain scripts as I explained.  Do your bash scripts
> use different syntax for different compilers?  This would be
> mind-boggling.  What mess do you have in your brains to think such a thing?

OK, let's try it out. I've just downloaded the open source Tiny C 
project. I try 'make' from various compilers with the following results:

MSVC's nmake:

   makefile(7) : fatal error U1034: syntax error : separator missing

Pelles C's pomake:

   A screen or two of warnings scroll up the screen. Then it crashes.

lccwin's make:

   No targets provided near line 6

gcc's make (a make.exe which is inside the bin directly of my gcc/tdm 
installation):

   "The program can't start because linintl-8.dll is missing from your 
computer"

Tiny C:

   [It doesn't appear to come with 'make'.]

This is completely typical of my experience with make files. (This 
makefile is here: https://pastebin.com/raw/Qz8QAiuS. It certainly looks 
like a language to me.)

> I would rather just ignore configure scripts.  Let's assume they indeed
> solve some problem and let's bear them when they're provided,

You can't ignore the ones that come with other projects, because there 
will be some 1-line config.h file that they end up generating that is 
essential to be able to build.

>> Are the compilers just too slow? What total number of sourcelines are
>> involved, and what is the net throughput in lines per second? Are
>> there just too many files involved?
> 
> But indeed, often compilation time depends on the complexity of the
> programming language, and choosing another programming language can lead
> to faster compilation times.

But what figures are we talking about? Are they reasonable or 
unreasonable for the amount of work involved? Such analyses don't get 
done probably because the people it affects aren't the ones who can do 
anything about it.

> You're not serious.  Again, not all projects are small programs you can
> compile with Turbo-Pascal.

I would never tolerate any system where you had to wait even a minute 
for each build.

There are plenty of things I've done in the past for avoiding any sort 
of delay when rebuilding any project. That meant a virtually zero-delay 
turnaround most of the time. This included working on very slow 8- and 
16-bit systems with limited memory and storage.

And stuff I'm doing now involves creating some very fast compilers: two 
compilers peaking at between 0.5M and 1M lines per second, and an 
assembler peaking at 4M lines per second.

On one compiler I overhauled recently, all modules of the whole compiler 
were recompiled from scratch each time I ran it; it took 0.03 seconds 
[24Kloc in 20-odd modules], so I didn't notice. Pressing a key on my 
keyboard takes far longer.

Anyway, there are lots of things that can be done, but I admit it is 
more difficult if dependencies on many cumbersome tools have been 
developed, or it is not possible to resist just making programs 
unnecessarily huge.

(I remember downloading an implementation - already built - of GHC 
(Haskell). It was a 2GB download, including a bundled 300MB version of 
the gcc C compiler.

It didn't work. But even if it did, 2GB, really? I had some 20-line test 
programs I wanted to try out, not run the Space Shuttle. (Which, 
incidentally, managed with much smaller programs!)

-- 
bartc

Thread

Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-01 14:40 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-01 14:55 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-02 21:05 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 01:18 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:03 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:10 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:23 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:28 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:44 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 23:26 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 21:59 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:45 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 10:59 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:20 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:30 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 11:11 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 13:51 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 09:48 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 12:25 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 15:32 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-04 07:52 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-04 08:43 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-05 07:58 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:37 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-07 21:02 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-05 15:29 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system rugxulo@gmail.com - 2018-03-06 18:23 -0800
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 04:54 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-07 00:33 -0600
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 09:55 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-07 17:29 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:39 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 10:44 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:57 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:28 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 22:44 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:47 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 10:23 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 14:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 16:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:28 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 08:59 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 19:21 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 08:08 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-16 11:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 16:45 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-16 16:09 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 18:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 18:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-17 21:37 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 21:00 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-18 11:39 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-18 12:29 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-19 13:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 05:40 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-20 11:05 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 06:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 18:51 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 19:55 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-23 18:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 20:13 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-24 01:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:48 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-26 19:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 22:35 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 12:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:49 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 18:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 19:33 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 20:35 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:10 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:47 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-27 00:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-30 19:55 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:49 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:04 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-23 21:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 11:22 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 12:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:15 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:36 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 14:52 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 11:06 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-14 16:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 09:00 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 12:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 11:18 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-15 06:29 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 20:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-17 11:51 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 06:31 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-20 17:14 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 07:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 01:38 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 20:05 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-25 16:55 +0100
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:39 +0100

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