Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system

From	"Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.misc
Subject	Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system
Date	2018-03-14 13:30 +0100
Organization	Informatimago
Message-ID	<m2y3iurg9s.fsf@despina.home> (permalink)
References	(6 earlier) <p86vs7$iq$1@dont-email.me> <p8act5$aj4$2@gioia.aioe.org> <9K6qC.684$hq2.22@fx42.am4> <m23713rlss.fsf@despina.home> <rJ7qC.304$rA1.23@fx34.am4>

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bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:

> On 14/03/2018 10:30, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote:
>> bartc <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>
>>> (I don't use makefiles because I don't think any of my C compilers
>>> have a working version. Or if they do, it invariably reports some
>>> error or other a few lines into the makefile, and I won't have a clue
>>> how to fix it. While my other languages don't have such a concept.)
>>
>> You don't know what make and makefiles are.  It's not a "C concept"!
>
> So, where does the program to run the makefile come from?
>
> On Windows, I've only seem them associated with C compilers, if they
> even have one.

GNU make is a stand alone program.

>> makefiles are just scripts (bash or sh or other, depending on the SHELL
>> variable), but structured into chunks executed to transform some input
>> files into output files.  Those dependencies rules are written:
>>
>>
>>      outputfile…  :  inputfile…
>>           shell command…
>>
>>
>> The problem with writing scripts (be it bat or sh or other) to build
>> systems, is that they're not efficient for iterative development, when
>> you modify only one or a few source files.  The scripts will recompile
>> everything from the start, which may take several minutes or even hours.
>
> I've seen makefiles used for the most trivial of projects. And
> actually, a lot of the time you have an extra level of script (a
> 'configure' file) to generate the makefile!

Yes, they didn't understand make either.
Look at the makefile of kermit instead.

> Outside of Unix, such scripts won't work, the makefiles tend to assume
> specific compilers, and even the compilers may fail to run the
> makefile.

Compilers don't run makefiles.  It's the make program that interprets
the makefile.

Of course, the scripts you write in your makefile should be POSIX
scripts if you want them to be portable.

(And who is foolish enough to use MS-Windows in the 3rd millenum!?)

>> By declaring the dependencies between inputs and outputs, with  commands
>> to perform the transformation, make is able to avoid useless work, by
>> executing only the commands strictly needed to update the target after
>> the sources are modified.
>
> Is it necessary to invent a whole new language just for that purpose?

Indeed it is not. And this is why make is so simple: no new language is
invented.

On the other hand, maven, scons, rake, etc, are all new languages to
implement the same feature.

> A project is already written in some language A and you are reasonably
> enough expected to have a tool that can compile A.

You have a bootstrapping problem: how do you know how to build the tool
that will build your system?

For example, in Common Lisp nowadays we usually use asdf to build
systems.  The asdf system itself cannot be built with asdf!  It needs to
be distributed as a single file to be loaded before you can use it to
build the other systems.

On the other hand, using a makefile, and a batch Common Lisp compiler,
you can build your lisp projects without any bootstrapping problem.

> With a makefile, the project now effectively is written in language B
> as well, and you need a compatible tool that will run B. (I understand
> makefiles vary in syntax across different compilers for A, so that a
> makefile that works for any implementation of A is harder.)

No, you are crazy.  make doesn't know anything about compilers,
makefiles are just plain scripts as I explained.  Do your bash scripts
use different syntax for different compilers?  This would be
mind-boggling.  What mess do you have in your brains to think such a thing?

> With configure scripts, the project is effectively written in yet a
> third language! Some use M4 as well as Bash.

I would rather just ignore configure scripts.  Let's assume they indeed
solve some problem and let's bear them when they're provided, but I
would never generate one (yes, because you don't write your own
configure script, there's actually at least another meta-level where you
write a specification for your configuration need, and a tool is used to
generate them!)

>> you modify only one or a few source files.  The scripts will recompile
>> everything from the start, which may take several minutes or even hours.
>
> This is a separate problem that needs to be investigated. Why are they
> taking minutes and hours? Is it due to executing all those layers of
> scripts and those thousands of lines of shell commands?

Often, just because it's the time that is required.  Not all programs are
small.

> Are the compilers just too slow? What total number of sourcelines are
> involved, and what is the net throughput in lines per second? Are
> there just too many files involved?

But indeed, often compilation time depends on the complexity of the
programming language, and choosing another programming language can lead
to faster compilation times.

How often can you change the programming language of a project just for
that reason?  Even before starting the project?

> It might be a project management problem more than anything else. But
> using incremental builds to hide any inefficiencies may allow such
> problems to build up, at a further cost of extra layers of scripting.

You're not serious.  Again, not all projects are small programs you can
compile with Turbo-Pascal.

-- 
__Pascal J. Bourguignon
http://www.informatimago.com

Thread

Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-01 14:40 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-01 14:55 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-02 21:05 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 01:18 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:03 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:10 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:23 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:28 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-09 02:44 -0500
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 23:26 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 21:59 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:45 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 10:59 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:40 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:20 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:58 -0500
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:30 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 11:11 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2018-03-01 13:51 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 09:48 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-03 12:25 +0000
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-03 15:32 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-04 07:52 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-04 08:43 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-05 07:58 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-06 21:37 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2018-03-07 21:02 +0000
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-05 15:29 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system rugxulo@gmail.com - 2018-03-06 18:23 -0800
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 04:54 +0000
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-07 00:33 -0600
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 09:55 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-07 17:29 +0000
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-06 06:39 -0500
    Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-07 10:44 +0000
      Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-07 06:57 -0500
        Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:28 +0000
          Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-11 07:44 -0400
            Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 22:44 +0000
              Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-14 01:47 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 10:23 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 11:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:30 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 14:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 16:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:28 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 08:59 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 19:21 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 08:08 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-16 11:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 16:45 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-16 16:09 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-16 18:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 18:32 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-17 21:37 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-17 21:00 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-18 11:39 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-18 12:29 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-19 13:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 05:40 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-20 11:05 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 06:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 18:51 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 19:55 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-23 18:03 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 20:13 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-24 01:30 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:48 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-26 19:42 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-26 22:35 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 12:01 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 20:49 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-20 18:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-21 19:33 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-21 20:35 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:10 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:47 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2018-03-27 00:58 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-30 19:55 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 06:49 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-23 21:04 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-23 21:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 11:22 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 12:12 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:15 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-24 13:36 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-24 14:52 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Marco van de Voort <marcov@toad.stack.nl> - 2018-04-19 11:06 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2018-03-14 16:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-14 19:38 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-15 09:00 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2018-03-15 12:54 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 11:18 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:52 +0100
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-15 06:29 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 20:37 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-17 11:51 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 06:31 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-20 17:14 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 07:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 01:38 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-24 16:10 +0000
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system Rod Pemberton <NoEmail@trraxvfeqa.prg> - 2018-03-24 20:05 -0400
                Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system James Harris <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2018-03-25 16:55 +0100
  Re: Compiling and linking code from different places in the file system "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> - 2018-03-14 13:39 +0100

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