Re: OT: The other Apple Drive

From	"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.sys.mac.system, misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject	Re: OT: The other Apple Drive
Date	2015-09-21 08:37 +1000
Message-ID	<d68qqcFjvbjU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(12 earlier) <55fee01d$0$43899$c3e8da3$5e5e430d@news.astraweb.com> <200920150939582025%michelle@michelle.org> <55feef67$0$35483$c3e8da3$b280bf18@news.astraweb.com> <d68dkkFgnuhU1@mid.individual.net> <55ff1c19$0$57908$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote
> Rod Speed wrote

>> It assumes that Apple is too stupid to use a completely
>> different body when testing the car on public roads to
>> the one that they announce when they decide to do that.

> Ever heard of crash worthiness ?

Irrelevant to whether Apple can get a self driving car
tested without it being clear that Apple is doing that.

ALL the car manufacturers manage to keep their new
body secret with a major new model by crash testing
the new body in secret and then getting the official
test done which they know it will pass due to their
own testing, at the last minute.

> This becomes more important if Jony
> Ive gets to do some very artistic design.

Still perfectly possible to do their own crash testing in secret.

Its much harder to test how self driving cars handle
real world traffic in complete secrecy. But trivially
easy to do it without revealing whose car it
actually is until the official announcement.

> How batteries behave in very hot weather and in accident also matters.

But also trivially easy to do that completely in secret.

> Proper electric cars have very different car body designs because of the
> need to fit lots of Li-ion batteries (Telsa has theirs under car floor).

Sure, but the body used to see how well the self driving car
handles the real world doesn’t have to be the one that has
clearly been done by Ive. The one done by Ive can be crash
tested completely in secret and pulled from a hat at launch time.

> Yes,  Apple can develop their core software on a
> generic car. (As Google has been doing). But there
> comes a time where it has to put its own car to the
> paces for both software and hardware/crash worthiness.

But the crash worthiness is done in tests, not in actual
crashed in the real world, so can be done in complete
secrecy, just like it is now with non self driving cars.

Its only after its started to be bought by end users that
we ever see what happens in real crashes and that can
see a real problem with the difference between the artificial
crash tests and the real world as Toyota has just discovered.

> Consider that winter handling characteristics of a generic
> steel car would be very different than on a Jony Ive design.

Not with the BODY. No reason why the entire wheel and suspension
and drive system can't be the one that will be sold to the public,
but with a very generic looking BODY that isn't obviously Ive designed.

> Similarly, car handing on a generic gasoline car with 2WD
> and transmission and differential would be very different
> from an all elecrtric car with either 2 motors for each rear
> wheels or even 4 motors, one for each wheel.

You don’t know that Apple's car will be all electric.

And even if it was, there is no reason why the real world
snow driving capability can't be tested with an all electric
car with the same wheels and suspension system that the
car which will be sold has, but with a generic body instead
of one that has obviously been done by Ive. And the Ive
body added at the last minute before its pulled from a
very large hat by a crane at an Apple megalaunch.

> (especially once you factor in regenerative braking and
> the need to use actual brakes under certain circumstances)

See above.

> So when the time comes to validate the software and design
> for winter driving, using that generic car design may not cut it.

No reason why it can't with just the BODY changed at the last minute.

Or they might well just decide that snow driving is just too hard
and that it makes more sense to just accept the fact that a self
driving completely snow driving car is just too hard just like
most of the current car manufacturers do right now and decide
that the best snow driving capability can be added later.

> The generic car design is fine to develop the situational
> awareness software. detecting trucks, cars, cyclists,
> pedestrians etc is not related to what car you are driving.

So they can obviously decide to add the best snow driving later.

> But they still need to come back to a variety of locations and seasons
> with the real design to retest car performance and the car's driving
> logic. (does car attempt to brake, swerve to avoid object, or sound the
> "collision alarm" when computer realises there is no way to avoid 
> accident).

But it doesn’t have to have Ive's body on that test car.

> hint: calculating braking distance varies greatly with weather, included
> fallen leaves on a rainy day, snow, ice, or rain in california.

But it doesn’t have to have Ive's body on that test car.
ALL it needs to have is the same wheels and transmission
and drive system as the car which will be sold has.

> And when the software tries to predict other driver's reactions, this
> software needs to be validated against many other types of drivers.
> You go to France and find drivers will be very different from drivers
> in Toronto in how they react to a situation.

I think its very unlikely that anyone will actually bother to send their
self driving test cars to the slums of India to check how well their
self driving cars perform in the most congested slums etc.

Or that many will ensure that their self driving cars perform
perfectly in the wilds of outer mongolia when a yak chooses
to sit on the car before they sell any self driving cars.

Or that they will bother to ensure that the self driving car
does what is best when used in a drive thru wildlife park
when a lion decides that the occupants look tasty and
that the self driving car needs to lock the doors when
the lion walks up to the car just in case it trys to open
the door and have one of the occupants for lunch.

> The other difficulty will be certification. When Airbus developped
> the A320, the FAA was ill equipped to validate FBW advanced
> designs. While the A320 passed the existing FAA certification
> with flying colours, it was ridden with bugs and many designs
> flaws that had not been considered possible before.

Cars aren't certified like heavys are.

> As an example, computers allowed Airbus to "add safety" by preventing
> deployment fo spoilers and thrust reversers in air, requiring that not 
> only
> the pressure/weight detectors on landing geer be "on" but also that
> wheels are detected to be spinning to confirm aircraft was truly on the
> ground. (there have been fatal crashes due to in-air deployment of
> spoilers and/or thrust reversers).

And cars are nothing like that.

> BUT... this caused an accident !  Upon landing on a wet runway,
> the nosewheel aquaplaned and didn't spin for a long time, and
> this prevented pilot from deploying thrust reverse, the very thing you
> need most on a slippery runway where braking power is reduced.

That mangles the real story with what happened there.

> It took a number of years for FAA to develop expertise and certification
> tests/requirements to ensure new aircraft being introduced were safe.

And cars aren't done like that.

> Commercial aircraft are put in a relatiovely limited number of
> situations that are, by now, fairly well known. So it becomes
> easier to write software that handles this list of known situations.
> But there was a learning curve when automation was introduced.

And there obviously will be with self driving cars too.

But its much easier to have a 'things are fucked,
pull over and stop' button with a self driving car.

> To think that self driving cars will be able to handle any/all
> situations on day 1 without incidents is very naive.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

> And how the car behaves when it encounters an unknown
> situation could cause accidents if the car beghind it is driven
> by human who can't predict the car will stop without warning.

Its never going to be possible to test all those situation,
like with how best to behave when an A380 has just
crashed in front of the self driving car.

> Once Apple has its final, design, yes, it can validate many parameters
> on a private test track (braking distance, acceleration characteristics
> and all others which makes the Jony Ive car different from the generic
> car that was used for development.

> However that Jony Ive car's characteristics will still need
> to be tested in real world, and in winter conditions.

Not with Ive's body on it it doesn’t.

> Analogy: when Airbus/Boeing/Bombardier develop a new plane, a large
> part of the certification process is to gather data on performance of the
> actual metal to adjust the software. (stall detection, take off and
> landing min/max performance limits, certify runway lengths needed for
> different temperatures etc. (and a lot of debgging happens as well)

Cars are done very differently.

> Manufacturers are quite happy when actual performance is close to
> what the computer predicted. But they still need to test the real vehicle.

And its perfectly possible to do that in secret with a car.

> Yes, they can delay publishing the looks of their car by hiding under a
> different body and by using numbered companies. This works during
> early development when a car is given plenty of waivers as a prototype.

> But when it comes to actual certifications they have to use the real 
> McCoy.

There is no certification of cars like that.

And the crash testing can certainly be done in secret.

> When you look at the Airbus A320 development, the authorities
> such as FAA were ill prepared to certify the aircraft as their tests
> were all aimed at conventional aircraft. So the A320 was given
> certification despite it having lots of software and design
> problems that FAA hadn't considered.

And cars aren't certified like heavys are.

And apparently some of the current car manufacturers
already have quite a bit of self driving capability
already in their cars, just currently disabled.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/saturdayextra/driverless-cars/6740256
Not sure if that will let you uncouth foreigners actually listen to our 
pristine pontifications.

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Thread

OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-18 18:01 -0400
  Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-18 18:33 -0400
    Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-18 19:00 -0400
      Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 16:19 -0700
        Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-18 19:52 -0400
          Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 17:26 -0700
            Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-18 20:55 -0400
              Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 18:09 -0700
            Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 05:40 +0000
              Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 22:54 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 06:43 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-19 02:56 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 00:18 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-19 06:56 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 05:05 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-19 10:19 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 08:30 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-19 18:25 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 22:38 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-19 18:54 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-19 19:07 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 10:18 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 14:35 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 11:02 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-21 09:02 +1200
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-20 16:05 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 12:32 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 18:49 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2015-09-20 10:36 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-20 14:51 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-19 12:19 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 04:57 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 12:30 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 16:38 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-19 13:20 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 17:39 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-19 13:49 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 20:34 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-19 17:24 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 15:38 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 22:42 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> - 2015-09-20 10:40 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> - 2015-09-19 21:00 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 12:37 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 20:28 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-19 19:43 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2015-09-19 15:46 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-19 18:30 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-20 14:36 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 11:07 -0400
              Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-19 06:59 -0700
              Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-19 10:13 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 08:20 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-19 16:49 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-19 18:29 -0400
          Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 14:34 +1000
            Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-19 01:28 -0400
              Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 22:45 -0700
              Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-19 18:05 +1200
              Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 16:35 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 23:56 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 17:29 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-19 12:15 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 04:54 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 12:23 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-19 13:24 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 13:52 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-20 09:43 +1200
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-19 16:52 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 17:10 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-20 14:08 +1200
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 00:08 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 14:48 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-20 16:52 +1200
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 10:23 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 14:34 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-20 14:44 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 14:58 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-20 08:05 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 15:51 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 13:20 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 16:02 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 06:19 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-20 13:47 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 07:57 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-21 09:12 +1200
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 17:19 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-20 16:07 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-20 16:38 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-20 17:40 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-20 18:57 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-21 06:15 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-21 09:23 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Patty Winter <patty1@wintertime.com> - 2015-09-22 05:12 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 07:32 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-21 07:48 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-21 13:15 +1200
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 21:23 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-21 16:07 +1200
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 07:31 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-21 17:08 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 23:12 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-20 22:56 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 19:23 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-20 23:43 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 20:20 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 07:42 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 20:18 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-21 02:51 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 11:25 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lloyd Parsons <lloydp211@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 15:52 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 11:00 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 12:49 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 04:47 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Jim Gibson <JimSGibson@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 16:58 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-20 14:38 +0000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 11:19 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 13:18 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-20 10:46 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-19 22:37 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-20 08:53 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-19 19:46 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-19 16:57 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-19 20:37 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-19 17:50 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 11:20 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 11:16 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-20 14:16 +1200
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 10:20 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 12:34 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-20 09:39 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 13:39 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-20 10:50 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 04:53 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 16:50 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 08:37 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-20 19:21 -0400
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 09:56 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-20 16:03 -0700
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 04:39 +1000
                Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-20 18:50 -0400
    Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 16:15 -0700
      Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-18 17:49 -0700
        Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 18:18 -0700
          Re: OT: The other Apple Drive JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2015-09-18 21:24 -0400
          Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-18 18:49 -0700
            Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2015-09-18 18:54 -0700
    Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2015-09-18 17:35 -0700
      Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2015-09-19 11:16 +0000
      Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Alan Browne <alan.browne@freelunchvideotron.ca> - 2015-09-19 10:04 -0400
    Re: OT: The other Apple Drive Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2015-09-19 13:20 +1200

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