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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #61095 > unrolled thread

Joy of this, Joy of that

Started byroot <NoEMail@home.org>
First post2024-11-19 17:09 +0000
Last post2024-11-20 18:53 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 842 — 23 participants

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Contents

  Joy of this, Joy of that root <NoEMail@home.org> - 2024-11-19 17:09 +0000
    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-20 00:18 +0000
      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that root <NoEMail@home.org> - 2024-11-20 02:33 +0000
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-20 02:52 +0000
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-20 04:46 +0000
    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-20 03:37 -0500
      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-20 15:46 +0000
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-20 16:03 +0000
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-21 02:20 -0500
          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-21 08:14 +0000
            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Bozo User <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-01-14 12:03 +0000
          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-21 13:41 +0000
            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> - 2024-11-21 20:19 -0700
              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-22 05:51 +0000
                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-22 23:57 -0500
                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 05:31 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-23 20:23 -0500
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-24 02:06 +0000
                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-24 00:16 -0500
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-24 05:14 +0000
                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-23 11:16 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-23 19:39 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> - 2024-11-23 13:46 -0700
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-24 14:33 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 21:57 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-23 20:17 -0500
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-24 05:26 +0000
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-24 14:37 +0000
                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-24 14:39 +0000
                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-24 17:00 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-24 22:07 +0100
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-25 02:12 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-25 10:55 +0100
                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-25 12:04 +0000
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-25 22:20 +0100
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-25 23:55 +0000
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-26 10:10 +0100
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-26 10:24 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-26 13:17 +0000
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-11-26 09:15 -0500
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-27 09:34 +0000
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-26 18:57 +0000
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-26 21:58 +0100
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-27 01:38 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-27 01:40 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-27 10:10 +0100
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-27 11:58 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-27 19:12 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-28 09:18 +0000
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-25 21:49 +0000
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-27 01:39 -0500
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-27 22:13 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-27 22:46 -0500
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-28 05:46 +0000
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-28 02:56 -0500
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-28 08:52 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 04:48 -0500
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-29 19:32 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-28 21:36 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 05:06 -0500
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-29 18:06 +0000
                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-30 00:16 -0500
                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-30 06:23 +0000
                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-30 06:53 +0000
                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-30 09:30 +0000
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-30 23:14 +0000
                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-01 04:19 -0500
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-01 11:21 +0000
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-01 16:27 +0000
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-02 23:28 -0500
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 18:41 +0100
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-02 00:37 -0500
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-01 20:47 +0000
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-02 23:57 -0500
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 21:27 +0000
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-02 23:58 -0500
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 10:51 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 19:30 +0000
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 19:26 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-05 01:03 -0500
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-05 10:25 +0100
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 01:13 -0500
                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 07:43 +0000
                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 10:12 +0100
                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-07 02:30 +0000
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 22:59 -0500
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:32 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-07 16:15 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 18:39 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-07 18:35 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:57 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:43 +0100
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:12 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-08 03:02 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 08:09 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-08 16:33 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-08 18:19 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-08 19:50 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 11:49 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-08 19:50 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 21:50 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 12:09 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2024-12-08 04:45 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 12:53 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-08 03:05 -0500
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:26 +0100
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:49 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-12-07 10:15 -0500
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 16:40 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-12-07 12:44 -0500
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 18:47 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:30 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 18:24 +0100
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 18:37 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:57 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 20:16 +0000
                                                                                          Re: The Joy Of Democracy Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-07 22:37 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 00:03 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:19 +0100
                                                                                      Re: The Joy Of Democracy Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-07 22:36 +0000
                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 22:41 -0500
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:29 +0100
                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 22:40 -0500
                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 04:50 +0000
                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 10:06 +0100
                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 23:27 -0500
                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:40 +0100
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-08 02:05 -0500
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 13:39 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-08 19:50 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-09 01:22 -0500
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-09 15:28 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 15:58 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-09 21:53 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:29 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 20:09 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 22:23 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 10:09 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:39 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 22:15 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-10 04:41 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:50 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 10:07 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-10 19:52 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 22:06 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-12 03:38 -0500
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-12 10:49 +0100
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-13 04:56 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-13 02:20 -0500
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 08:38 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-13 11:42 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-13 11:41 +0100
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-13 11:32 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 20:01 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 11:48 +0100
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 11:40 +0100
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 13:15 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 19:09 +0100
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-14 18:17 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-13 11:34 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-14 05:18 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 13:08 +0100
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 13:51 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 19:15 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-09 11:39 -0800
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 20:22 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 09:52 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-12 03:07 -0500
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-12 08:22 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-12 08:13 -0800
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-13 01:55 -0500
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 08:30 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-13 07:53 -0800
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 11:45 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-13 11:38 +0100
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 20:14 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 11:53 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 11:13 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-14 18:28 +0000
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 20:49 +0000
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 23:33 -0500
                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-07 07:54 +0000
                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-08 02:44 -0500
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-29 21:42 +0000
                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-30 00:19 -0500
                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-30 06:22 +0000
                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-01 03:39 -0500
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-01 09:03 +0000
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-01 11:08 +0000
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-01 20:46 +0000
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-12-02 07:13 +1000
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-01 23:26 +0000
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-02 01:06 +0000
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-28 05:52 +0000
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-28 02:47 -0500
                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-11-25 19:39 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-11-26 07:09 -0500
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-26 19:31 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-02 09:02 -0800
                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-02 18:55 +0000
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-12-02 23:25 +0000
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-03 00:59 +0000
                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-02 23:23 +0000
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-03 00:53 -0500
                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-24 22:06 +0100
                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-25 08:03 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-25 10:58 +0100
          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-21 17:25 +0000
      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-11-20 08:10 -0800
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-20 16:31 +0000
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-20 17:54 +0000
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-20 19:02 +0000
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-20 21:05 +0000
          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-11-20 23:30 +0000
            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-20 23:58 +0000
              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-11-21 01:50 +0000
            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-21 02:48 +0000
              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-11-22 20:30 +0000
          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-21 08:09 +0000
            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-21 10:45 -0500
              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-21 23:04 +0000
                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-21 20:31 -0500
                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-22 03:54 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-22 01:25 -0500
                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-22 18:53 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-22 21:04 +0000
                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-22 10:35 +0000
                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-22 13:37 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-22 19:30 +0000
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-22 21:03 +0000
                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-23 07:09 +0000
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-22 23:07 +0000
                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 00:44 +0000
                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-23 01:08 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 01:41 +0000
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-23 08:26 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-23 11:25 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 21:36 +0000
                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-23 23:48 +0000
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-24 00:31 +0000
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-24 21:19 +0000
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-24 22:36 +0000
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-24 05:01 +0000
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-24 21:29 +0000
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-24 22:37 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-25 11:48 +0000
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-25 21:47 +0000
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-25 01:43 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-25 10:53 +0100
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-25 19:42 +0000
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-25 23:21 +0100
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-25 23:37 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-26 10:09 +0100
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-26 19:17 +0000
                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-26 21:59 +0100
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-02 15:21 -0800
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-02 23:28 +0000
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 03:46 +0000
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-24 19:35 -0500
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-25 00:36 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-25 01:41 -0500
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-25 06:47 +0000
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-25 21:50 -0500
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-26 03:00 +0000
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-25 10:56 +0100
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-25 21:58 -0500
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-26 04:03 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-26 10:12 +0100
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-27 01:58 -0500
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-27 10:12 +0100
                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-27 19:06 +0000
                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-27 21:26 +0100
                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-28 19:59 +0000
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-28 21:53 +0100
                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-27 23:12 -0500
                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-28 05:54 +0000
                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-28 02:22 -0500
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-28 08:38 +0000
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 03:18 -0500
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-29 13:18 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-30 01:18 +0000
                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-28 11:04 +0100
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-28 18:22 +0000
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-28 21:52 +0100
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 04:24 -0500
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-29 13:22 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 23:42 -0500
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-30 06:25 +0000
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-30 09:28 +0000
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 12:02 +0100
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-29 18:39 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 23:44 -0500
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 03:21 -0500
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-29 10:29 +0100
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-29 13:24 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-29 18:23 +0000
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-29 21:01 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-29 22:51 +0100
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-30 00:17 +0000
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 11:52 +0100
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-29 22:43 +0000
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-30 09:24 +0000
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-29 18:53 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-29 22:52 +0100
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-30 00:21 +0000
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 11:53 +0100
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 23:31 -0500
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-30 07:00 +0000
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 12:05 +0100
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-29 13:19 +0000
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-29 18:57 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-29 21:04 +0000
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-29 22:54 +0100
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-30 00:07 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-29 22:53 +0100
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-30 00:12 +0000
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-30 09:18 +0000
                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 12:06 +0100
                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-30 18:47 +0000
                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 21:56 +0100
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 01:15 +0000
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 11:18 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 18:47 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 22:11 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-02 13:19 -0800
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 02:21 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 10:04 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 19:09 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 21:24 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 01:37 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 11:09 +0100
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 18:55 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:59 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-05 00:35 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-05 10:22 +0100
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-05 21:19 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 09:56 +0100
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-06 13:46 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 18:24 +0100
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:25 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 17:51 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-07 02:30 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:27 +0100
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:54 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 18:27 +0100
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 18:39 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:20 +0100
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 22:40 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 11:54 +0100
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 18:40 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:23 +0100
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 02:44 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 12:06 +0100
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 21:23 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 10:29 +0100
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 22:06 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 10:02 +0100
                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-10 19:41 +0000
                                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 22:03 +0100
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-12-08 09:29 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:50 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-12-07 10:18 -0500
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 16:41 +0000
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2024-12-07 12:48 -0500
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:34 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:56 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:39 +0100
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-08 04:52 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-05 07:55 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 11:07 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 15:06 +0100
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 14:27 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 21:37 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 10:34 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 21:16 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 20:50 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 10:24 +0100
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 12:18 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 14:08 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 14:29 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:49 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 00:42 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 10:35 +0100
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 12:10 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 14:07 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 14:25 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:47 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 12:10 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 14:05 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 17:44 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:52 +0100
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-05 01:18 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-05 10:24 +0100
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-01 10:44 +0000
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-01 10:42 +0000
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 18:38 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 20:57 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 22:15 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-02 02:17 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 11:16 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-12-02 07:23 +1000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 10:25 +0100
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 11:17 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 11:01 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 15:04 +0100
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 20:40 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 11:14 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 15:06 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 14:28 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 21:38 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 03:54 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 10:39 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 19:00 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 21:18 +0100
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 20:53 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 00:32 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 12:07 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 10:25 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 12:20 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-04 17:57 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 00:30 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 10:35 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 19:13 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 22:01 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 11:58 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-02 18:49 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 21:40 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 02:59 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 10:08 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 10:45 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 18:53 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 21:21 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 20:55 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 00:24 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 10:33 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-04 17:57 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 10:27 +0100
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 12:21 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 14:09 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 14:29 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:50 +0100
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-05 07:57 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 17:50 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:53 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 00:20 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 10:32 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 21:19 +0100
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 11:52 +0100
                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-30 18:44 +0000
                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 21:54 +0100
                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 01:09 +0000
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-01 03:50 -0500
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-01 10:54 +0000
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 11:15 +0100
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-01 10:46 +0000
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 19:29 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 11:09 +0000
                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-01 10:36 +0000
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 18:32 +0100
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-01 18:49 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 22:11 +0100
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 19:13 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 22:14 +0100
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-02 01:50 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 10:26 +0100
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 10:27 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 15:03 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 14:26 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 21:36 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2024-12-04 04:03 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 11:10 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 12:13 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 14:07 +0100
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 14:27 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:47 +0100
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 19:02 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 22:00 +0100
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-05 01:51 -0500
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-05 10:31 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-05 09:36 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-05 13:17 +0100
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 01:51 -0500
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 10:11 +0100
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-06 13:41 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 18:23 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 19:54 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 21:40 +0100
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:23 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 17:50 +0100
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 18:10 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 22:57 +0100
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-07 01:04 -0500
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:23 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-07 00:55 -0500
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 08:17 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:52 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 14:12 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:50 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 14:20 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 18:33 +0100
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 18:46 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:29 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 01:48 -0500
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 07:46 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 10:09 +0100
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-06 13:31 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 18:18 +0100
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:22 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 17:50 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 18:45 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:10 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:57 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 20:16 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 02:56 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:25 +0100
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 20:51 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:20 +0100
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:43 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 17:57 +0100
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 18:31 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:07 +0100
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 22:37 +0000
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 11:52 +0100
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 01:39 +0000
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 11:59 +0100
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 21:45 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 10:33 +0100
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 12:13 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 21:41 +0100
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-09 21:57 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 09:59 +0100
                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:54 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:32 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 22:12 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 10:05 +0100
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:56 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:35 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 21:11 +0100
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 12:09 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 02:06 +0000
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 12:04 +0100
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 21:13 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 10:26 +0100
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 11:56 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 21:51 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 09:58 +0100
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:54 +0000
                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 21:14 +0100
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-10 19:50 +0000
                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 22:04 +0100
                                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 23:15 +0000
                                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-11 10:57 +0100
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:21 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 19:20 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:37 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 19:16 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:37 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:36 +0100
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 03:36 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 12:10 +0100
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 22:31 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 10:43 +0100
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 23:15 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 10:20 +0100
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-10 19:31 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 22:03 +0100
                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-11 01:44 +0000
                                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-11 11:03 +0100
                                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-12 01:11 +0000
                                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-12 10:21 +0100
                                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-12 20:08 +0000
                                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-12 21:31 +0100
                                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 01:29 +0000
                                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-13 11:13 +0100
                                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 20:28 +0000
                                                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 11:57 +0100
                                                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 13:03 +0000
                                                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 19:40 +0100
                                                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 19:57 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-15 12:11 +0100
                                                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-15 12:37 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-15 19:28 +0100
                                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-13 10:42 +0000
                                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 20:18 +0000
                                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 11:54 +0100
                                                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 11:18 +0000
                                                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 19:02 +0100
                                                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 18:37 +0000
                                                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 23:01 +0100
                                                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-14 18:43 +0000
                                                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 19:59 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-15 00:33 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-15 11:25 +0100
                                                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 23:05 +0100
                                                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-15 01:04 +0000
                                                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-15 11:27 +0100
                                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 11:17 +0000
                                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 11:28 +0100
                                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-14 13:14 +0000
                                                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 19:07 +0100
                                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of Translation Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-12-11 12:33 +0000
                                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of Translation Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> - 2024-12-11 15:16 +0000
                                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of Translation rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-12 01:15 +0000
                                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of Translation Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-12 05:06 +0000
                                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of Translation rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-12 08:24 +0000
                                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of Translation D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-12 10:37 +0100
                                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of Translation rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-12 20:15 +0000
                                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of Translation D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-12 21:33 +0100
                                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of Translation rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 01:47 +0000
                                                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of Translation D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-13 11:20 +0100
                                                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of Translation rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-13 20:50 +0000
                                                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of Translation D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-14 12:00 +0100
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:42 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-10 19:58 +0000
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 21:12 +0100
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-10 22:49 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 12:37 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 21:12 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 11:18 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:21 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 19:49 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 19:14 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:35 +0100
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-06 13:18 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 18:12 +0100
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-07 02:41 -0500
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:52 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:00 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 17:45 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 18:32 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:09 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-08 00:28 -0500
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 12:24 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 17:42 +0100
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 17:07 +0000
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 22:57 +0100
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 22:30 +0000
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 11:51 +0100
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 11:59 +0000
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 17:39 +0100
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 16:54 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 22:48 +0100
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 22:26 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 11:48 +0100
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-08 12:15 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 21:50 +0100
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 11:55 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 21:39 +0100
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 21:26 +0000
                                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 22:38 +0000
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 10:43 +0100
                                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 12:40 +0000
                                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 21:44 +0100
                                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 21:48 +0000
                                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 09:56 +0100
                                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-08 00:31 -0500
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-08 08:13 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-08 12:14 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-08 19:50 +0000
                                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-08 12:11 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-08 21:49 +0100
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 11:54 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 21:38 +0100
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-10 00:19 +0100
                                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-10 15:48 +0000
                                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-09 03:02 -0500
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 12:41 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-09 21:47 +0100
                                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-09 12:42 +0000
                                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-09 21:36 +0000
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-12-07 02:30 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-07 00:32 -0500
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:55 +0000
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-02 10:20 +0000
                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-02 15:02 +0100
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-03 00:30 -0500
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 10:13 +0100
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 10:54 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 19:14 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-03 21:25 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 01:15 +0000
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 10:37 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 18:48 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:56 +0100
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-04 00:44 -0500
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 11:12 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-04 07:58 -0800
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:52 +0100
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-05 01:37 -0500
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-05 07:16 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2024-12-06 04:02 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 05:39 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-05 10:29 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-05 01:28 -0500
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-05 07:34 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 01:31 -0500
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-06 13:09 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 20:33 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-07 00:19 -0500
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 05:37 +0000
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 13:30 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 19:07 +0000
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 23:43 -0500
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-07 05:29 +0000
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:43 +0100
                                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 14:07 +0000
                                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 18:30 +0100
                                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 18:43 +0000
                                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 23:25 +0100
                                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-07 14:02 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-04 18:15 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-04 21:55 +0100
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-05 01:42 -0500
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-05 07:27 +0000
                                                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-06 01:40 -0500
                                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 08:00 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-05 10:30 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-05 07:50 +0000
                                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2024-12-06 03:29 +0000
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 05:25 +0000
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 10:00 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-06 13:04 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 18:09 +0100
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 19:49 +0000
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 21:39 +0100
                                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-06 21:15 +0000
                                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-07 11:24 +0100
                                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 09:58 +0100
                                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-06 13:47 +0000
                                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-06 18:24 +0100
                                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) - 2024-12-06 17:29 +0000
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 19:02 +0000
                                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-03 00:20 -0500
                                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-29 22:50 +0100
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-29 23:50 -0500
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-30 06:39 +0000
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-30 09:29 +0000
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-30 11:57 +0100
                                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-01 04:11 -0500
                                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 11:21 +0100
                                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-01 18:54 +0000
                                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-03 00:10 -0500
                                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 19:32 +0000
                                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-01 03:54 -0500
                                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-01 11:19 +0100
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-02 12:35 -0800
                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-28 11:03 +0100
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-25 02:41 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-25 02:11 -0500
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-24 10:25 +0000
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-24 21:23 +0000
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-25 01:46 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-25 02:41 -0500
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-25 09:07 +0000
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-25 22:59 -0500
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-26 04:43 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-26 05:57 +0000
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-26 08:49 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-26 05:29 +0000
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-12-02 15:43 -0800
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-03 10:47 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-03 19:23 +0000
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-25 02:33 -0500
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-25 19:54 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-25 23:58 -0500
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-23 02:29 +0000
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-23 08:52 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-23 11:30 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-23 19:28 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-22 21:02 +0000
            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-21 19:48 +0000
              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-21 23:14 +0000
                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-21 23:50 +0000
                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-22 01:51 -0500
              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-22 10:34 +0000
                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-22 10:45 +0000
                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-22 12:30 +0000
                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-22 18:53 +0000
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-11-22 20:40 +0000
                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-23 07:09 +0000
                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 07:44 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-23 09:05 +0000
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-23 11:31 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-23 19:16 +0000
                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 21:48 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-23 19:47 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-23 10:16 +0000
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-23 11:34 +0000
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-23 19:16 +0000
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 21:45 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-24 12:46 +0000
                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-24 20:20 +0000
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-25 08:57 +0000
                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-25 21:48 +0000
                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-26 08:32 +0000
                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-26 21:22 +0000
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-26 21:30 +0000
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-26 21:36 +0000
                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> - 2024-11-26 17:55 -0700
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-27 01:48 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-27 12:05 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-27 16:33 +0000
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-27 17:20 +0000
                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-27 18:58 +0000
                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-28 08:35 +0000
                                                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-28 09:16 +0000
                                                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2024-11-28 14:19 +0000
                                                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-28 18:19 +0000
                                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-29 10:11 +0000
                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-27 22:11 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-27 18:32 +0000
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-28 09:16 +0000
                                                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-29 10:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-27 18:51 +0000
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-27 04:39 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> - 2024-11-26 22:38 -0700
                                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-27 09:27 +0000
                                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-27 22:06 +0000
                                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-27 23:59 +0000
                                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-28 00:57 +0000
                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2024-11-23 11:20 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 21:38 +0000
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-22 20:58 +0000
                        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-23 07:09 +0000
                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 07:45 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-23 19:16 +0000
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-23 21:40 +0000
                                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-11-25 04:40 +0000
                                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-25 06:50 +0000
                                    Re: Joy of this, Joy of that candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-11-25 18:20 +0000
                          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-23 09:10 +0000
                            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2024-11-23 19:16 +0000
                              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Pancho <Pancho.Jones@proton.me> - 2024-11-23 20:50 +0000
                      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-11-23 01:28 -0500
                  Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-22 20:55 +0000
        Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-20 21:47 +0000
          Re: Joy of this, Joy of that John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2024-11-20 14:09 -0800
            Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-20 23:39 +0000
              Re: Joy of this, Joy of that vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-11-21 01:27 +0000
                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-21 02:16 +0000
                Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-21 04:31 +0000
      Re: Joy of this, Joy of that rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-11-20 18:53 +0000

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#61985

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-12-08 22:31 +0000
Message-ID<lrml1gFaa38U4@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#61956
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:10:55 +0100, D wrote:

> I'm no expert, but I'd say the sitting version sounds more "original".
> As for Watts, I'm always skeptical of those kind of new ages guys, but
> very often people seem to be huge fans.

The story has several variations but the general theme is Gautama spent 6 
years trying the various New Age techniques with no success until he 
decided to plant himself under the Bodhi tree until he figured it out. 

Then came the systemizers and the immense body of Abhidharma literature, 
followed by the different schools arguing over interpretation. 

I always had problems with some of those texts. Those people would have 
loved LibreOffice since everything is enumerated lists. I can't reliably 
remember the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Twelve 
Links of Dependent Origination let alone the subgroupings like the Five 
Skahndas. 

That's probably why I like Nietzsche; sprawling, self-contradictory, spur 
of the moment aphorisms with no attempt to build a system. That's better 
than Schopenhauer's 'On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient 
Reason' which he claims is the key to understanding The World as Will. 

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#62003

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-09 10:43 +0100
Message-ID<12bd40ae-a14e-7772-cb7a-5bf427664dec@example.net>
In reply to#61985

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:10:55 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I'm no expert, but I'd say the sitting version sounds more "original".
>> As for Watts, I'm always skeptical of those kind of new ages guys, but
>> very often people seem to be huge fans.
>
> The story has several variations but the general theme is Gautama spent 6
> years trying the various New Age techniques with no success until he
> decided to plant himself under the Bodhi tree until he figured it out.

Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal 
spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very 
knowledgeable!

> Then came the systemizers and the immense body of Abhidharma literature,
> followed by the different schools arguing over interpretation.
>
> I always had problems with some of those texts. Those people would have
> loved LibreOffice since everything is enumerated lists. I can't reliably
> remember the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Twelve
> Links of Dependent Origination let alone the subgroupings like the Five
> Skahndas.

Yes... it's fascinating when you think about the enormous page count the 
buddhists have racked up over the milennia! ;) I cannot but get the 
feeling that this is completely antithetical compared with buddhas 
original intenetions. ;)

> That's probably why I like Nietzsche; sprawling, self-contradictory, spur
> of the moment aphorisms with no attempt to build a system. That's better
> than Schopenhauer's 'On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient
> Reason' which he claims is the key to understanding The World as Will.

I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts 
about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make perfect 
sense and are quite approachable.

But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.

Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I do 
not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe there 
is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.

Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle 
period Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.

But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his 
short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections and 
philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also like with 
its critique of institutionalized christianity and how damaging it has 
been to society.

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#62070

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-12-09 23:15 +0000
Message-ID<lrpc0kFnkplU3@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#62003
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:


> Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
> spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
> knowledgeable!

I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll 
admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also 
blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say 
it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though 
parallels my understanding of the world.

However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't 
think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of 
original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer 
contra Nietzsche.

> I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts
> about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make
> perfect sense and are quite approachable.

I've got Hollingdale's 'Essays and Aphorisms' that is a selection. I don't 
know how complete it is. I have read that during his service in WWI Hitler 
carried a copy of Schopenhauer's writings in his knapsack. I assume it was 
Parerga and not the two volumes of The World. 

> But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.

For me that's back to his pessimism. I think the real person of the 'obit 
anus, abit onus' quote would have been more interesting than the 
intellectual. He probably had a few good rants on Hegel too. 

> Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I
> do not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe
> there is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.
> 
> Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle period
> Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.

That is more interesting than Schopenhauer. He may have done a little 
polishing but he was a one trick pony, unlike Nietzsche. I'm currently re-
reading the unfinished 'Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks' that's 
quite linear. Prior to that I'd reread the late works, Twilight, 
Antichrist, and Ecce Homo. Next I'll redo the middle. It's been some time 
since I've read 'Untimely Meditations', the others I've hit more recently. 
TBH Zarathustra is my least favorite of the while corpus. 

 
> But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his
> short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections
> and philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also
> like with its critique of institutionalized christianity and how
> damaging it has been to society.

'The Will to Power' is one my bathroom book pile. I read random selections 
like some people do with the bible. I don't trust the llama as an editor 
but I'm glad she undertook the project. 

Antichrist reminds me of the Jefferson Bible and some of the newer 
projects. Pauline Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus. I think by 
then Nietzsche felt bad about sniping at poor old Strauss.

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#62103

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-10 10:20 +0100
Message-ID<1a9e8e48-13eb-8276-cd59-1a31218d1dfb@example.net>
In reply to#62070

On Tue, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:
>
>
>> Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
>> spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
>> knowledgeable!
>
> I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll
> admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
> blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
> it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though
> parallels my understanding of the world.

Ah, Kim is an excellent book! I'm a big fan of Kipling. Sometimes, when 
I'm in the mood, I direct woke people to "The white mans burden". ;)

As for asian isms and philosophy I was reading a lot of it in my teenage 
years. Then followed the years of work and earning money, and after a 
while I delved into christians mysticism, and that's when the enormous 
amounts of simlarities hit me.

Now it goes in cycles. Busy at work, little reading, little work, plenty 
of reading.

> However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't
> think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
> original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
> contra Nietzsche.

This is a problem. I am an optimist (long term) by nature, so sin, 
suffering etc. never really corresponded with me. Naturally I'm more into 
life affirming things.

>> I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts
>> about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make
>> perfect sense and are quite approachable.
>
> I've got Hollingdale's 'Essays and Aphorisms' that is a selection. I don't
> know how complete it is. I have read that during his service in WWI Hitler
> carried a copy of Schopenhauer's writings in his knapsack. I assume it was
> Parerga and not the two volumes of The World.

Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers in 
WW1? Hmm, maybe not.

>> But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.
>
> For me that's back to his pessimism. I think the real person of the 'obit
> anus, abit onus' quote would have been more interesting than the
> intellectual. He probably had a few good rants on Hegel too.

Could he be the original Troll? No, surely that must be Socrates. As a 
man with trollish inclinations, I'm happy that I'm not dealt with like 
the greek dealt with their proto-troll. ;)

I also do not like philosophers with verbal diarrhea. I like philosopher 
who can communicate their thoughts with a minimum of writing. Even though 
I find him quite complicated, in terms of writing style, I also like 
Wittgenstein.

>> Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I
>> do not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe
>> there is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.
>>
>> Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle period
>> Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.
>
> That is more interesting than Schopenhauer. He may have done a little
> polishing but he was a one trick pony, unlike Nietzsche. I'm currently re-
> reading the unfinished 'Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks' that's
> quite linear. Prior to that I'd reread the late works, Twilight,
> Antichrist, and Ecce Homo. Next I'll redo the middle. It's been some time
> since I've read 'Untimely Meditations', the others I've hit more recently.
> TBH Zarathustra is my least favorite of the while corpus.

I haven't really looked much into early Nietzsche, but if anything, I'll 
probably try one of his later works.

>
>> But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his
>> short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections
>> and philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also
>> like with its critique of institutionalized christianity and how
>> damaging it has been to society.
>
> 'The Will to Power' is one my bathroom book pile. I read random selections
> like some people do with the bible. I don't trust the llama as an editor
> but I'm glad she undertook the project.

How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?

> Antichrist reminds me of the Jefferson Bible and some of the newer
> projects. Pauline Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus. I think by
> then Nietzsche felt bad about sniping at poor old Strauss.

Haha, yes, the trollish tendencies again? ;)

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#62144

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-12-10 19:31 +0000
Message-ID<lrrj9aF4og5U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#62103
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:20:41 +0100, D wrote:


> Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers
> in WW1? Hmm, maybe not.

Wikipedia claims about 150,000 copies of Zarathustra were given out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#cite_note-300

The Kaufmann citation is from 'Nietzsche Philosopher, Psychologist, 
Antichrist' and says

"Feelings ran high both in Germany, where Zarathustra was pushed to a new 
sales record as a "must" for the soldier's knapsack, and in England and 
the United States, where Nietzsche began to be considered as the apostle 
of German ruthlessness and barbarism."

In his notes on his translation of Zarathustra Kaufmann says there are a 
few gems in the mire, a lot of very poor writing, and difficulties 
translating the puns and so forth. He also trashes Thomas Common's 1909 
translation, saying at one point he wasn't sure if Common spoke either 
English or German very well. 

I wouldn't call Kaufmann a hostile translator but he wasn't a real fan. 
Being a Jew who fled Germany in 1939 he really hated Foerster-Nietzsche. 
He became the Nietzsche expert for a generation but he needs to be taken 
with a grain of salt.

> How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?

He had left a few notes for a future work but never followed through. 
Foerster-Nietzsche used the rough outline sort the section headings and 
collected notes and jottings that seemed to fit. She may have edited some 
of those but the real argument is she promoted the collection as 
Nietzsche's final magnum opus, rather than Ecce Homo. I have Common's 
translation of Zarathustra which has a foreword by her. She throws in a 
few snippets from 'Ecce Homo' but tried to downplay it since some of it 
doesn't support her agenda. 

fwiw, while Kaudmann might have been full of himself when criticizing 
Common, Common's translation reads like the King James bible with all the 
archaic thee's and thou's. 

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#62159

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-10 22:03 +0100
Message-ID<ceccead2-2c2f-1db7-4d71-e12576e6010b@example.net>
In reply to#62144

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:20:41 +0100, D wrote:
>
>
>> Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers
>> in WW1? Hmm, maybe not.
>
> Wikipedia claims about 150,000 copies of Zarathustra were given out.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#cite_note-300

Ahh, so I wasn't wrong. I checked an "AI" and it said I was wrong. Damn 
him! ;)

> The Kaufmann citation is from 'Nietzsche Philosopher, Psychologist,
> Antichrist' and says
>
> "Feelings ran high both in Germany, where Zarathustra was pushed to a new
> sales record as a "must" for the soldier's knapsack, and in England and
> the United States, where Nietzsche began to be considered as the apostle
> of German ruthlessness and barbarism."
>
> In his notes on his translation of Zarathustra Kaufmann says there are a
> few gems in the mire, a lot of very poor writing, and difficulties
> translating the puns and so forth. He also trashes Thomas Common's 1909
> translation, saying at one point he wasn't sure if Common spoke either
> English or German very well.
>
> I wouldn't call Kaufmann a hostile translator but he wasn't a real fan.
> Being a Jew who fled Germany in 1939 he really hated Foerster-Nietzsche.
> He became the Nietzsche expert for a generation but he needs to be taken
> with a grain of salt.
>
>> How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?
>
> He had left a few notes for a future work but never followed through.
> Foerster-Nietzsche used the rough outline sort the section headings and
> collected notes and jottings that seemed to fit. She may have edited some
> of those but the real argument is she promoted the collection as
> Nietzsche's final magnum opus, rather than Ecce Homo. I have Common's
> translation of Zarathustra which has a foreword by her. She throws in a
> few snippets from 'Ecce Homo' but tried to downplay it since some of it
> doesn't support her agenda.
>
> fwiw, while Kaudmann might have been full of himself when criticizing
> Common, Common's translation reads like the King James bible with all the
> archaic thee's and thou's.

Interesting. When the times is right, I think I'll have to see for myself!

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#62172

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-12-11 01:44 +0000
Message-ID<lrs93jF7n0tU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#62159
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:03:06 +0100, D wrote:

>> archaic thee's and thou's.
> 
> Interesting. When the times is right, I think I'll have to see for
> myself!

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1998/1998-h/1998-h.htm

That's the Commmon translation with Foedster-Nietzsche's introduction. 

Amazon has Hollingdale's translation for the staggering sum of $0.29 on 
Kindle. There are quite a few other translations of Zarathustra as well as 
other works that are very inexpensive on Kindle.

A good way to start a fight in a barroom full of Nietzsche scholars is to 
ask which is the best English translation. Kaufmann is the usual answer 
but he disagreed with much of Nietzsche's thought, hated Common, who was 
conveniently dead when Kaufmann did his translation, and didn't think much 
of Zarathustra. Others like Common, followed by Hollingdale. 

The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can really 
be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he questions 
if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and associations the 
words had in the original. 

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#62190

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-11 11:03 +0100
Message-ID<698b7064-5f49-d7b5-39e7-c18a513154ef@example.net>
In reply to#62172

On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:03:06 +0100, D wrote:
>
>>> archaic thee's and thou's.
>>
>> Interesting. When the times is right, I think I'll have to see for
>> myself!
>
> https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1998/1998-h/1998-h.htm
>
> That's the Commmon translation with Foedster-Nietzsche's introduction.
>
> Amazon has Hollingdale's translation for the staggering sum of $0.29 on
> Kindle. There are quite a few other translations of Zarathustra as well as
> other works that are very inexpensive on Kindle.
>
> A good way to start a fight in a barroom full of Nietzsche scholars is to
> ask which is the best English translation. Kaufmann is the usual answer
> but he disagreed with much of Nietzsche's thought, hated Common, who was
> conveniently dead when Kaufmann did his translation, and didn't think much
> of Zarathustra. Others like Common, followed by Hollingdale.

Haha. Yes, Kaufmann is the name I've seen pop up the most when I checked 
Nietzsche translations. On the other hand, I am fairly fluent in german 
when it comes to reading, so maybe I should aim higher and actually read 
the original? =)

> The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can really
> be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he questions
> if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and associations the
> words had in the original.

This is very commonly thought and communicated in russian and chinese 
culture. The conclusion is of course, the russiand and/or chinese culture 
is so sublime it can never be translated or understood by western 
barbarians. ;)

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#62219

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-12-12 01:11 +0000
Message-ID<lrurh7Fknh0U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#62190
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:03:28 +0100, D wrote:


> Haha. Yes, Kaufmann is the name I've seen pop up the most when I checked
> Nietzsche translations. On the other hand, I am fairly fluent in german
> when it comes to reading, so maybe I should aim higher and actually read
> the original? =)

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7205/pg7205-images.html

Du grosses Gestirn! Was wäre dein Glück, wenn du nicht Die hättest, 
welchen du leuchtest!

Common has

"Thou great star! What would be thy happiness if thou hadst not those for 
whom thou shinest!"

Kaufmann has

"You great star, what would your happiness be had you not those for whom 
you shine?"

One criticism of Kaufmann is he rearranges Nietzsche's idiosyncratic 
punctuation. The newer translations mostly follow Kaufmann, some with 
slightly different sentence structure or wording. After all when you're 
doing the 15th translation you need to do something differently.

The real question is what effect was Nietzsche striving for? His father 
was a Lutheran minister so he had plenty of exposure to Luther's bible 
translation. Was he trying to adopt the tone or parody it? 

While the archaic language can put people off Common does capture the feel 
of du/sie and behind that the attempt by bible translators to capture the 
original singular/plural pronoun distinctions.

Personally, I'll go for the readable versions. I'd never read the New 
Testament due to the traditional two column layout and the somewhat 
stilted language. Oddly one of the things issued in boot camp was "Good 
News for Modern Man", and I finally got around to reading it. Bible people 
will argue about the dynamic translation but at least I read it. Of course 
there wasn't much else to read besides the green book with its wisdom 
about which side of a Claymore gets pointed to whoever you're trying to 
kill. 



> 
>> The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can
>> really be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he
>> questions if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and
>> associations the words had in the original.
> 
> This is very commonly thought and communicated in russian and chinese
> culture. The conclusion is of course, the russiand and/or chinese
> culture is so sublime it can never be translated or understood by
> western barbarians.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#62242

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-12 10:21 +0100
Message-ID<73f2019d-9a05-68eb-c3f6-e88a32fd334f@example.net>
In reply to#62219

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:03:28 +0100, D wrote:
>
>
>> Haha. Yes, Kaufmann is the name I've seen pop up the most when I checked
>> Nietzsche translations. On the other hand, I am fairly fluent in german
>> when it comes to reading, so maybe I should aim higher and actually read
>> the original? =)
>
> https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7205/pg7205-images.html
>
> Du grosses Gestirn! Was wäre dein Glück, wenn du nicht Die hättest,
> welchen du leuchtest!
>
> Common has
>
> "Thou great star! What would be thy happiness if thou hadst not those for
> whom thou shinest!"
>
> Kaufmann has
>
> "You great star, what would your happiness be had you not those for whom
> you shine?"

Interesting comparison! It highlight my lack of german skills. My initial 
translation, would be "You great star, what would your happiness be, if 
you did not have those who you shine on". My feeling here is that "for 
whom you shine" implies that the sun exists for the people, but my initial 
translation would be that the people exist for the sun.

Now I'm very curious to read some original and compare it with my 
Gutenberg downloads.

> One criticism of Kaufmann is he rearranges Nietzsche's idiosyncratic
> punctuation. The newer translations mostly follow Kaufmann, some with
> slightly different sentence structure or wording. After all when you're
> doing the 15th translation you need to do something differently.
>
> The real question is what effect was Nietzsche striving for? His father
> was a Lutheran minister so he had plenty of exposure to Luther's bible
> translation. Was he trying to adopt the tone or parody it?

In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have borrowed 
for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one of the best 
writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern analytic 
philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern philosophy texts 
can be bone dry.

> While the archaic language can put people off Common does capture the feel
> of du/sie and behind that the attempt by bible translators to capture the
> original singular/plural pronoun distinctions.

For me that fades into the background eventually. Same with reading the 
Iliad or Odyssey, at first it's a bit annoying, but after a while it 
flows.

> Personally, I'll go for the readable versions. I'd never read the New
> Testament due to the traditional two column layout and the somewhat
> stilted language. Oddly one of the things issued in boot camp was "Good
> News for Modern Man", and I finally got around to reading it. Bible people
> will argue about the dynamic translation but at least I read it. Of course
> there wasn't much else to read besides the green book with its wisdom
> about which side of a Claymore gets pointed to whoever you're trying to
> kill.

Ah, so you were a military man? Somehow I get the image of a Rambo who 
retired to the wildernes!

Or maybe we're in Airwolf territory? Or perhaps A-team? ;)

>
>
>>
>>> The question is if anything more complicated than Schwedenkrimi can
>>> really be translated. In one of Heidegger's more accessible essays he
>>> questions if we can adequately translate Greek with the nuances and
>>> associations the words had in the original.
>>
>> This is very commonly thought and communicated in russian and chinese
>> culture. The conclusion is of course, the russiand and/or chinese
>> culture is so sublime it can never be translated or understood by
>> western barbarians.
>
>

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#62261

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-12-12 20:08 +0000
Message-ID<ls0u6gFembU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#62242
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:

> In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
> borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one
> of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern
> analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
> philosophy texts can be bone dry.

While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from 
Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and 
Hegel, well...


It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein, etc. I 
chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others 
later in life. 

Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've 
made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'. 

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#62267

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-12 21:31 +0100
Message-ID<367885be-9825-94b4-cd4e-c3a2684bc29c@example.net>
In reply to#62261

On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:21:18 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> In some caes perhaps parody, but I think in others, he might have
>> borrowed for dramatic effect? One thing is clear, I find him to be one
>> of the best writers of many philosophers. Compare it with some modern
>> analytic philosophy and it's not even the same universe. Modern
>> philosophy texts can be bone dry.
>
> While he ultimately disagreed with him, Nietzsche learned a lot from
> Schopenhauer. They both are readable. Kant's answer to Hume isn't and
> Hegel, well...

I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and 
Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones 
history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.

> It's been a long time since I've read Russell, Moore, Wittgenstein, etc. I
> chewed on Principia in high school and tried to read some of the others
> later in life.

Russell is not too bad. He has some nice essays. But his technical work is 
not my cup of tea.

> Part of the problem is I realized my brain doesn't work that way. I've
> made a living employing logic all my life but it just 'happens'.

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#62283

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-12-13 01:29 +0000
Message-ID<ls1h0hF3c94U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#62267
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:31:39 +0100, D wrote:

> I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
> Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones
> history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.

Schopenhauer is the original Debbie Downer. In Hollingdale's introduction 
to the 'Essays and Aphorisms' selection he theorizes the philosophy 
reflects the personality which was molded by events. The family business 
went bankrupt and it was a struggle for him to get his money. However he 
was stubborn and persistent, making out better than the other creditors. 

Then there was his fling at teaching when he scheduled his class in the 
same time slot as Hegel's. Nobody came. He could have rescheduled but 
chose to resign. 

'Will' didn't fly off the shelves. His mother was an author in her own 
right. He said that his works would be around long after hers were gone. 
She replied with something like, 'Yeah the entire first edition will still 
be unsold.' They didn't get along well.

It's been years but iirc Hume's 'An Enquiry Concerning Human 
Understanding' was quite readable. His first attempt 'Treatise of Human 
Nature' was stillborn so he tried again.

Hume triggered Kant's rebuttal and Schopenhauer thought highly of him. I 
think he gets mentioned once by Nietzsche lumped with the 'English 
physiologists'. 

I don't think I made it through Copleston's entire History but I 
definitely remember the cheap paperback volumes. I did make it as far a 
Zeno, that's for sure. 

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#62307

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-13 11:13 +0100
Message-ID<45f5b478-6183-3b6d-3f8d-29f8452a8aff@example.net>
In reply to#62283

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:31:39 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I find Schopenhauer opaque and too negative, and way too wordy. Kant and
>> Hume I never read in the original but only filtered through Coplestones
>> history of philosophy and did not feel like I needed the originals.
>
> Schopenhauer is the original Debbie Downer. In Hollingdale's introduction
> to the 'Essays and Aphorisms' selection he theorizes the philosophy
> reflects the personality which was molded by events. The family business
> went bankrupt and it was a struggle for him to get his money. However he
> was stubborn and persistent, making out better than the other creditors.
>
> Then there was his fling at teaching when he scheduled his class in the
> same time slot as Hegel's. Nobody came. He could have rescheduled but
> chose to resign.
>
> 'Will' didn't fly off the shelves. His mother was an author in her own
> right. He said that his works would be around long after hers were gone.
> She replied with something like, 'Yeah the entire first edition will still
> be unsold.' They didn't get along well.
>
> It's been years but iirc Hume's 'An Enquiry Concerning Human
> Understanding' was quite readable. His first attempt 'Treatise of Human
> Nature' was stillborn so he tried again.
>
> Hume triggered Kant's rebuttal and Schopenhauer thought highly of him. I
> think he gets mentioned once by Nietzsche lumped with the 'English
> physiologists'.
>
> I don't think I made it through Copleston's entire History but I
> definitely remember the cheap paperback volumes. I did make it as far a
> Zeno, that's for sure.
>

Very interesting! And wasn't there, as was so often the case among 
philosophers, the fact that Schopenhauer wasn't the most popular man with 
the ladies as well?

Nietzsche certainly seemed to derive a lot of energy from a broken heart.

Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out 
of 12! ;) My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and 
the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very 
uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until the 
enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.

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#62337

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2024-12-13 20:28 +0000
Message-ID<ls3jmnFd6vkU4@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#62307
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:

> Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
> of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
> uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.

I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest 
petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My 
natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought.

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#62371

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-14 11:57 +0100
Message-ID<13cd6f90-9859-60f4-3f93-f0ec64874f49@example.net>
In reply to#62337

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
>> of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
>> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
>> uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
>> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
>
> I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
> petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
> natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought.
>

Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!

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#62385

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2024-12-14 13:03 +0000
Message-ID<vjjvna$nd7$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#62371
On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
>>> of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
>>> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
>>> uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
>>> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
>>
>> I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
>> petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
>> natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in 
>> thought.
>>
> 
> Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!

Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it clearly 
separates the term, from the reality it describes.

Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.

The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in that 
he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.

As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid 
model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not - 
was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....

The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish 
mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science 
of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.

The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a 
fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths 
and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to 
Materialism and  Laws of Nature.

"Maps of consciousness" as Ralph Metzner put it.

-- 
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of 
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

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#62405

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-14 19:40 +0100
Message-ID<9bfe71f2-15ce-bf03-beae-d4da72b25301@example.net>
In reply to#62385

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first book out
>>>> of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
>>>> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, very
>>>> uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
>>>> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
>>> 
>>> I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
>>> petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
>>> natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in thought.
>>> 
>> 
>> Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!
>
> Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it clearly 
> separates the term, from the reality it describes.
>
> Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.
>
> The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in that he 
> regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.
>
> As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid model 
> in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not - was to be 
> distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....

What is your opinion on the transcendental error?

The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is what 
has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency 
to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of reality 
itself. According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly 
seeks to explore what we can understand about our experiences, he 
mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive 
faculties on a reality that could be structured differently. This leads to 
an incoherent position where one cannot meaningfully consider a reality 
devoid of these structures because such a consideration relies on the very 
cognitive faculties that Kant claims impose those structures. Thus, this 
misunderstanding undermines the objective status of knowledge and reality.

In The Bounds of Sense, P. F. Strawson suggests a reading of Kant's first 
Critique that, once accepted, forces rejection of most of the original 
arguments, including transcendental idealism. Strawson contends that, had 
Kant followed out the implications of all that he said, he would have seen 
that there were many self-contradictions implicit in the whole.[12]: 403 

Strawson views the analytic argument of the transcendental deduction as 
the most valuable idea in the text, and regards transcendental idealism as 
an unavoidable error in Kant's greatly productive system. In Strawson's 
traditional reading (also favored in the work of Paul Guyer and Rae 
Langton), the Kantian term phenomena (literally, things that can be 
seen—from Greek: phainomenon, "observable") refers to the world of 
appearances, or the world of "things" sensed.[13]: 99–101  They are tagged 
as "phenomena" to remind the reader that humans confuse these derivative 
appearances with whatever may be the forever unavailable "things in 
themselves" behind our perceptions. The necessary preconditions of 
experience, the components that humans bring to their apprehending of the 
world, the forms of perception such as space and time, are what make a 
priori judgments possible, but all of this process of comprehending what 
lies fundamental to human experience fails to bring anyone beyond the 
inherent limits of human sensibility. Kant's system requires the existence 
of noumena to prevent a rejection of external reality altogether, and it 
is this concept (senseless objects of which we can have no real 
understanding) to which Strawson objects in his book.

> The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish 
> mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science of the 
> Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.
>
> The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a 
> fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths and 
> Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to Materialism and 
> Laws of Nature.

A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe? 
It is very interesting!

> "Maps of consciousness" as Ralph Metzner put it.
>
>

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#62413

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2024-12-14 19:57 +0000
Message-ID<vjknvr$4tan$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#62405
On 14/12/2024 18:40, D wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> On 14/12/2024 10:57, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:13:50 +0100, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Zeno? Well, it does sound you made quite an attack on the first 
>>>>> book out
>>>>> of 12!  My least favourite part of that series is the middle ages and
>>>>> the christian philosophers and theologians. For some reason, very, 
>>>>> very
>>>>> uninteresting to me. But greek, yes, rome, yes, then nothing, up until
>>>>> the enlightenment, when things start to become interesting again.
>>>>
>>>> I'd have to look at the ordering but I think that's where my interest
>>>> petered out. I liked the Nominalists. Confirmation bias, I guess. My
>>>> natural setting regards Platonic realism as a major wrong turn in 
>>>> thought.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Amen! The nominalists were (are) the Donald Trump of metaphysicists!
>>
>> Nominalism is a crude form of transcendental idealism in that it 
>> clearly separates the term, from the reality it describes.
>>
>> Which as you say, is not Platonic realism.
>>
>> The problem with Plato is that his realism was really idealism, in 
>> that he regarded the ideas as more fundamental than things.
>>
>> As I said, Kant really drew everything together to produce the hybrid 
>> model in which the world - whether you think of it as material or not 
>> - was to be distinguished absolutely from our *conception *of it....
> 
> What is your opinion on the transcendental error?
> 
> The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is 
> what has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s 
> tendency to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of 
> reality itself. 

I never thought that at all. He was in fact completely distinct in his 
thinking between 'the world in itself' and 'the world of our 
perceptions., as being utterly different -  though related.

Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is what 
they think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply nonsense.

>According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant 
> correctly seeks to explore what we can understand about our experiences, 
> he mistakenly concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive 
> faculties on a reality that could be structured differently. 

That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because 
Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.


> This leads 
> to an incoherent position where one cannot meaningfully consider a 
> reality devoid of these structures because such a consideration relies 
> on the very cognitive faculties that Kant claims impose those 
> structures. Thus, this misunderstanding undermines the objective status 
> of knowledge and reality.

Of course., That is the whole point. The knowledge and reality we have 
is entirely relative to or world view - the end results of the 
*reification* of 'whatever the fuck the external world really is' by the 
mind into a world view that encompasses the very nature of way we 
consider to be real.

Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple objective 
  reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we cannot grasp 
it: It has to go through our processes of categorisation before it is 
intelligible to us'.


> 
> In The Bounds of Sense, P. F. Strawson suggests a reading of Kant's 
> first Critique that, once accepted, forces rejection of most of the 
> original arguments, including transcendental idealism. Strawson contends 
> that, had Kant followed out the implications of all that he said, he 
> would have seen that there were many self-contradictions implicit in the 
> whole.[12]: 403 

Well strawspn seems to be a bit of a dick. We remember Kant and 
Schopenhaer, not Strawson.
Schopenhauer corrected Kant a bit, which was good. Chiefly he saw the 
implication of 'the world in itself' more clearly and pointed out that 
'things in themselves' was in fact wrong, because the idea of plurality 
and division was again something that happened in the mind, not 
necessarily in the world.


> 
> Strawson views the analytic argument of the transcendental deduction as 
> the most valuable idea in the text, and regards transcendental idealism 
> as an unavoidable error in Kant's greatly productive system.

Not sure what transcendental deduction was. Oh. The argument that says 
transcendental idealism is in fact what we really do.

I get the feeling Strawson isn't the brightest bulb in the box. To me 
one follows inevitably from the other. They are aspects of the same view.

>  In 
> Strawson's traditional reading (also favored in the work of Paul Guyer 
> and Rae Langton), the Kantian term phenomena (literally, things that can 
> be seen—from Greek: phainomenon, "observable") refers to the world of 
> appearances, or the world of "things" sensed.[13]: 99–101  They are 
> tagged as "phenomena" to remind the reader that humans confuse these 
> derivative appearances with whatever may be the forever unavailable 
> "things in themselves" behind our perceptions.

Exactly so, Or, post Schopenhauer, the 'thing in itself' - experience of 
something utterly beyond comprehension that we chunk into things and 
events in space time linked by causality. And out of that process pops 
the world of phenomena - the 'material world'  as I use the term, as an 
emergent property of the process itself.

That is, the real data is elsewhere - we create structures that point to 
it and call that the real world.


> The necessary 
> preconditions of experience, the components that humans bring to their 
> apprehending of the world, the forms of perception such as space and 
> time, are what make a priori judgments possible, but all of this process 
> of comprehending what lies fundamental to human experience fails to 
> bring anyone beyond the inherent limits of human sensibility. 

Sounds right to me.  To go further you need special techniques, to 
glimpse the world and indeed consciousness from a special place. Then it 
becomes clear.
If you cant conceive of or arrive at that space or place, then it's all 
nonsense.
I suspect Strawson simply can't.


> Kant's 
> system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a rejection of 
> external reality altogether, and it is this concept (senseless objects 
> of which we can have no real understanding) to which Strawson objects in 
> his book.
> 
Well there ya go. If you are creating a real metaphysical system you end 
up with awkward bits that many people don't like.

Strawson presumably didn't like quantum physics either :-)

I shuffled this all around in my head and came to various conclusions 
and people said 'you sound like Schopenhauer' and a friend who is a 
philosophy professor threw Kant at me and he was right. I had arrived in 
the same ballpark as Kant. And more so Schopenhauer, at least in the 
context of the best model of what 'external reality'  was.

But I disagreed with both of them on the moral and life choice 
conclusions they drew, as far as I can remember.

The 'problem' of transcendental idealism is it must needs introduce an 
element that is anathema to materialist and realist alike , and that is 
the necessary postulating of  an independent entity that takes 'whatever 
is the case' - the 'world-in-itself'  - the 'noumenal world' and turns 
it into [maps it, performs a 'transform' on it]  the 'phenomenal world' 
that everybody casually takes as 'real'.

And that entity is the person's mind, consciousness, or  soul etc etc. 
In fact the material world ,as we commonly understand it, moves around 
in the TI model to become the emergent cross-product of the 
world-in-itself *as interpreted by*' the 'consciousness'* .. which has 
to be independent or you get recursive paradoxes.  You can't have the 
mind creating a material reality which has the mind as an emergent 
property of that material reality, It's unstable! Worse, it is 
dangerously insane and people who cant break out of that can go insane. 
Cognitive dissonance protects us from having that thought.


Dyed in the wool materialists don't want consciousness and choice to be 
independent. They have already decided to make them emergent properties 
of *matter*, and so they think Kant is a cunt, trying possibly to 
reintroduce the supernatural by the back door.

My own thought is that right or wrong, the  answers that that model 
gives, solve a huge amount of subjectivity in the human experience.



>> The middle ages were restrictive in terms of Christianity, but Jewish 
>> mysticism and philosophy flourished, as did the philosophy and science 
>> of the Persians. Before that became subsumed by Islam and vanished.
>>
>> The study of what people *thought* was real, through the ages, is a 
>> fascinating history that isn't really covered by any discipline. Myths 
>> and Magics, religions and gods, forces and demiurges. And then to 
>> Materialism and Laws of Nature.
> 
> A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe? 
> It is very interesting!
> 
I spent many years looking at religions, magical systems, cults and so 
on. And the paranormal and unexplained 'weird shit'. It is even more 
peppered with total bullshit than philosophy, but it does give a clue as 
to how  weird some peoples minds are.

And now and again I glimpsed something that might have made sense, if it 
hadn't been  reported by complete idiots who couldn't think clearly.

Some one said once I should invent a new religion. I did a test. I 
invented the Church of the Yo-yo.  Believe in the Yo-yo and be saved.  I 
had a great little electric yo-yo . Mesmerising. Some twit from the 
'children of God' even believed me.

I stopped there. I don't lust for power over peoples minds, and their 
purses.

Funnily enough, I was very familiar with UFO cults and the like and the 
'men in black meme' and when the film came out I was  super amused when 
one of my employees insisted in explaining what 'men in black' were.

I didn't think admitting I probably knew ten times more than they did 
was consistent with running an orderly business.


-- 
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They 
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

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#62452

FromD <nospam@example.net>
Date2024-12-15 12:11 +0100
Message-ID<73e53272-49cf-15f8-7ec4-198e29fd1afa@example.net>
In reply to#62413

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> What is your opinion on the transcendental error?
>> 
>> The Transcendental Error: One significant flaw in Kant’s thinking is what 
>> has been termed the “transcendental error.” This refers to Kant’s tendency 
>> to conflate the limits of human cognition with the nature of reality 
>> itself. 
>
> I never thought that at all. He was in fact completely distinct in his 
> thinking between 'the world in itself' and 'the world of our perceptions., as 
> being utterly different -  though related.
>
> Many materialist simply cannot understand it - to them the world is what they 
> think it is and see it as, and therefore Kant is simply nonsense.

Yes, I think we've established that this is why we keep talking past each 
other on this subject. Were you at one point in the materialist camp, and 
then you reached enlightenment, or did you always feel that the 
materialist camp was unsatisfactory, and after Kant everything sort of 
clicked into place for you?

>> According to critics like Peter Strawson, while Kant correctly seeks to 
>> explore what we can understand about our experiences, he mistakenly 
>> concludes that these limits are imposed by our cognitive faculties on a 
>> reality that could be structured differently. 
>
> That is exactly right, and to my certain knowledge it can be: Because 
> Strawson cant do it doesn't mean it cant be done.

This is true. I was curious about what you would say about Strawsons 
argument.

> Strawson seems to be a Beleiver. He wants there to be a simple objective 
> reality that we can grasp. Kant says 'its there, but we cannot grasp it: It 
> has to go through our processes of categorisation before it is intelligible 
> to us'.

I think the point is that, if we can never grasp it, we can never say it 
is or anything about it, and I think that is why he argues it collapses 
into idealism, or potentially, solipsism.

>> Kant's system requires the existence of noumena to prevent a rejection of 
>> external reality altogether, and it is this concept (senseless objects of 
>> which we can have no real understanding) to which Strawson objects in his 
>> book.
>> 
> Well there ya go. If you are creating a real metaphysical system you end up 
> with awkward bits that many people don't like.
>
> Strawson presumably didn't like quantum physics either :-)

This is another very interesting topic. Which interpretation is true, is anyone
of them true? Or should we adopt the stance and "shut up and calculate"?

> I shuffled this all around in my head and came to various conclusions and 
> people said 'you sound like Schopenhauer' and a friend who is a philosophy 
> professor threw Kant at me and he was right. I had arrived in the same 
> ballpark as Kant. And more so Schopenhauer, at least in the context of the 
> best model of what 'external reality'  was.
>
> But I disagreed with both of them on the moral and life choice conclusions 
> they drew, as far as I can remember.
>
> The 'problem' of transcendental idealism is it must needs introduce an 
> element that is anathema to materialist and realist alike , and that is the 
> necessary postulating of  an independent entity that takes 'whatever is the 
> case' - the 'world-in-itself'  - the 'noumenal world' and turns it into [maps 
> it, performs a 'transform' on it]  the 'phenomenal world' that everybody 
> casually takes as 'real'.

I think this is the fundamental disagreement and what Strawson feels is the
fundamental error that collapses it into idealism.

> Dyed in the wool materialists don't want consciousness and choice to be 
> independent. They have already decided to make them emergent properties of 
> *matter*, and so they think Kant is a cunt, trying possibly to reintroduce 
> the supernatural by the back door.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

> My own thought is that right or wrong, the  answers that that model gives, 
> solve a huge amount of subjectivity in the human experience.

Each answer has its own pros and cons. Since it's philosophy, there is always 
the risk that the conversation will still be going on in a 1000 years. ;)

Thank you for your comments and explanation. I think I understand you better
now, and where the key-disagreement is.

>> A cross section of the history of ideas and philosophy of science maybe? It 
>> is very interesting!
>> 
> I spent many years looking at religions, magical systems, cults and so on. 
> And the paranormal and unexplained 'weird shit'. It is even more peppered 
> with total bullshit than philosophy, but it does give a clue as to how  weird 
> some peoples minds are.

This is the truth! It seems to me that "magic" has collapsed into pop-psychology
in our current day and age. I am very interested in the subject, from that
angle. I think magic dovetails nicely with the philosophy of Feyerabend and
perhaps you can add a pinch of pragmatism as well. At least that seems to be the
justification I get when talking to "occultists" and wiccans.

> And now and again I glimpsed something that might have made sense, if it 
> hadn't been  reported by complete idiots who couldn't think clearly.
>
> Some one said once I should invent a new religion. I did a test. I invented 
> the Church of the Yo-yo.  Believe in the Yo-yo and be saved.  I had a great 
> little electric yo-yo . Mesmerising. Some twit from the 'children of God' 
> even believed me.
>
> I stopped there. I don't lust for power over peoples minds, and their purses.
>
> Funnily enough, I was very familiar with UFO cults and the like and the 'men 
> in black meme' and when the film came out I was  super amused when one of my 
> employees insisted in explaining what 'men in black' were.
>
> I didn't think admitting I probably knew ten times more than they did was 
> consistent with running an orderly business.

Maybe you stopped too soon? If not, you would have had a nice old age, with many
young women to support you! ;)

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