Re: The "Standards" Game

From	Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.misc, alt.comp.os.windows-11
Subject	Re: The "Standards" Game
Date	2025-09-25 13:16 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10b3bq4$67lv$6@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(12 earlier) <68d333e6@news.ausics.net> <10b0pk5$3ljbp$1@dont-email.me> <10b0upf$3mjsl$1@dont-email.me> <10b30u4$67lv$2@dont-email.me> <10b32rs$5u19$21@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 9/25/25 10:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 25/09/2025 10:10, Pancho wrote:
>> The problem I'm referring to is technological advance. In a reasonable 
>> world, we would expect future breakthroughs in technology to make 
>> electricity cheaper. Maybe Fusion, maybe SMRs (like Copenhagen 
>> Atomics). In 60 years, it is likely something will turn up. I know you 
>> agree with me, that electricity could be generated cheaper.
>>
> I guess that is why 50 year old reactors in the UK are now the cheapest 
> generators on the grid
> 
> 
>> So that is the problem for any finance based upon future cashflows 
>> from the sale of electricity decades in the future. The amount you can 
>> sell electricity for will likely decrease. The longer in the future, 
>> the more likely cheaper alternatives will appear.
> 
> In fact under renewable energy and the advent of tight oil the price of 
> electricity has steadily *increased*.
> 
> And you have completely ignored the issue of potential refinancing if 
> e.g. bond rates go down.
> 
> The cost of running a reactor is *absolutely dominated* by the cost of 
> the capital you borrowed to build it.
> 

No, interest rates can be fixed. You can hedge, this is a red herring.

> No other structure of comparable complexity is going to cost less.
> 
> The only way to get costs down is by reducing regulatory overburden back 
> to the levels of the 1960s and 1970s
> 
> 
> You simply do not understand the detail of the cost of a nuclear power 
> station.
> It costs next to nothing to run. Only a small amount to maintain.
> 
> ALL its costs are the costs of the capital used to build it (and 
> ultimately to decommission it, but that's far less).
> 
> Ergo if its designed to have paid for itself after - say - 50 years and 
> it does another ten years after that, it can afford to sell its 
> electricity for the cost of the fuel and maintenance, which is so low 
> that NOTHING can compete with it
> 

I understand there is a balance between plant cost (decommissioning too, 
if you insist on comflexification) and revenue from sales.

You keep assuming revenue from sales is assured. In a free market, it 
isn't. The amount of revenue could drop after 10 years, you might never 
get to break even. This is why the government fixes a strike price.

However, the upfront plant investment in nuclear isn't just build cost, 
it is R&D. Any reactor builder is investing in learning how to build 
future reactors cheaper. This isn't just big reactors, it is SMR too. 
The government doesn't offer a strike price for all the reactors you 
plan to build. So if the electricity price plummets, the R&D asset 
disappears.

Yes, you can say electricity prices might go up. They have gone up. But 
that is due to political incompetence. Prices can only go up so far 
before something snaps and much cheaper alternatives are rolled out. 
Hopefully in the next 10-20 years.

> Which is why it's the last thing to be taken off the UK grid., Any 
> income at all  is profit.
> 
> Nothing can compete with a paid for nuclear reactor on electricity price.
> 

Yes, I understand it is profit, but it isn't enough to balance build 
cost. SumOfAllFutureProfit - BuildCost =  ActualProfit.

>>
>> It is only now that we see that politicians have made such a pig's ear 
>> of generation that you see big companies, ai data centres, getting 
>> scared. They know if the governments continue to mess it up, the first 
>> people to suffer from rationing will be ai data centres.
>>
> And golly. They want reactors.
> 

And to his huge credit, Bill Gates has invested in them, rather than 
building silly space rockets.

The Chinese communists of course have a superior government, managed 
economy, which builds them.

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Re: The "Standards" Game not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-09-22 09:17 +1000
  Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-22 11:46 +0100
    Re: The "Standards" Game Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-09-22 16:05 -0400
      Re: The "Standards" Game Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-23 00:07 +0000
        Re: The "Standards" Game rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-23 03:03 +0000
        Re: The "Standards" Game Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-09-23 21:03 +1000
          Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-23 13:35 +0100
          Re: The "Standards" Game Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-09-23 15:23 +0000
            Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-23 17:30 +0100
              Re: The "Standards" Game Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-09-23 18:03 +0000
                Re: The "Standards" Game Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-23 18:29 +0000
                Re: The "Standards" Game "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-23 22:17 +0200
                Re: The "Standards" Game Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-09-24 18:43 +0000
              Re: The "Standards" Game "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-23 22:15 +0200
              Re: The "Standards" Game "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-23 22:13 +0200
              Re: The "Standards" Game rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-24 03:06 +0000
            Re: The "Standards" Game Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-09-26 23:28 +1000
      Re: The "Standards" Game Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2025-09-22 18:17 -0600
        Re: The "Standards" Game Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-09-23 21:23 +1000
          Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-23 13:37 +0100
            Re: The "Standards" Game "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-23 22:21 +0200
              Re: The "Standards" Game Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-23 14:31 -0700
                Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 01:29 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-24 02:59 +0000
                Submarine testing. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-24 21:54 +0200
              Re: The "Standards" Game Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-23 21:39 +0000
                Re: The "Standards" Game "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-24 01:00 +0200
                Re: The "Standards" Game Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-24 05:05 +0000
                Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 01:29 +0100
              Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 01:28 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-24 05:06 +0000
                Re: The "Standards" Game "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-24 22:26 +0200
                Re: The "Standards" Game Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-09-28 22:52 +1000
                Re: The "Standards" Game Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-09-28 12:00 -0400
                Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-28 17:34 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-09-29 23:36 +1000
                Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-29 15:45 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-28 18:29 +0000
                Re: The "Standards" Game not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-09-29 08:54 +1000
                Re: The "Standards" Game Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-09-28 22:51 -0400
                Re: The "Standards" Game Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-09-29 23:46 +1000
                Re: The "Standards" Game Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-10-04 09:50 +0000
                Opening a submarine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-24 22:02 +0200
                Re: Opening a submarine Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-24 15:26 -0700
                Re: Opening a submarine rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-24 23:31 +0000
                Re: Opening a submarine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:16 +0200
                Re: Opening a submarine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 09:53 +0100
                Re: Opening a submarine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:23 +0200
                Re: Opening a submarine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:20 +0100
                Re: Opening a submarine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-25 22:26 +0200
                Re: Opening a submarine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 10:35 +0100
                Re: Opening a submarine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-26 13:34 +0200
                Re: Opening a submarine The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 12:36 +0100
                Re: Opening a submarine rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-25 17:23 +0000
                Re: Opening a submarine "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-25 22:31 +0200
                Re: Opening a submarine rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-26 04:18 +0000
          Re: The "Standards" Game rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-23 16:44 +0000
            Re: The "Standards" Game Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-09-30 00:02 +1000
      Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-23 11:24 +0100
    Re: The "Standards" Game not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-09-23 08:55 +1000
      Re: The "Standards" Game Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-23 00:07 +0000
        Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-23 12:17 +0100
      Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-23 11:58 +0100
        Re: The "Standards" Game not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-09-24 09:57 +1000
          Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 01:35 +0100
            Re: The "Standards" Game Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2025-09-24 12:51 +1000
          Re: The "Standards" Game Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-24 05:06 +0000
            Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 11:41 +0100
          Re: The "Standards" Game Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-09-24 13:49 +0100
            Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-24 15:21 +0100
              Re: The "Standards" Game Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-09-25 10:10 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 10:43 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-09-25 13:16 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 14:09 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-09-26 22:01 +0100
                Re: The "Standards" Game not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-09-26 09:35 +1000
                Re: The "Standards" Game The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 10:56 +0100
          Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-24 22:12 +0200
            Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-24 15:20 -0700
              Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 10:11 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> - 2025-09-25 07:25 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 12:58 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-25 08:11 -0700
                Re: Nuclear plants. knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> - 2025-09-25 13:19 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 19:00 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-26 04:53 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 11:10 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 19:22 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-26 20:23 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-09-26 17:34 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-09-26 16:36 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2025-10-03 08:59 +1000
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-03 14:20 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Peter Jason <pj@jostle.com> - 2025-10-04 15:12 +1000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-10-04 02:01 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-04 08:02 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-04 08:01 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-10-04 04:59 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-09-25 19:06 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 10:51 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-01 21:52 +1000
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-01 14:28 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-10-01 12:44 +0000
                Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-01 19:26 +0200
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-10-02 01:03 +0000
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-02 13:45 +0200
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-10-02 18:47 +0000
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-02 21:59 +0200
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-02 22:11 +0200
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-10-02 22:09 +0000
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2025-10-02 20:55 +0000
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-10-02 22:07 +0000
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] vallor <vallor@vallor.earth> - 2025-10-02 06:40 +0000
                Re: Orbital mechanics. [Was: Nuclear plants.] The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-02 11:47 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-10-01 09:20 -0700
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 18:50 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-26 13:43 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 13:04 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-26 20:24 +0200
              Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:29 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> - 2025-09-25 12:53 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:48 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:26 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-25 20:44 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 10:21 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-26 13:49 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 13:06 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-25 08:17 -0700
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 18:54 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-25 18:07 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-25 20:48 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-26 04:33 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 10:26 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-27 07:45 +0100
                OT: Re: Nuclear plants. Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-27 10:09 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-27 02:30 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-09-27 10:16 +1000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Daniel70 <daniel47@nomail.afraid.org> - 2025-10-02 22:28 +1000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-02 13:41 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-25 13:51 -0700
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-26 04:47 +0000
              Re: Nuclear plants. Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:25 -0400
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 19:06 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-26 04:56 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-25 22:52 -0700
                Re: Nuclear plants. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2025-09-26 06:47 +0000
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 11:24 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> - 2025-09-26 09:34 -0700
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 11:23 +0100
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-26 11:22 +0100
                Re: OT: Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-27 12:52 +0100
                OT: Re: Nuclear plants. Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-27 10:32 +0100
            Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 10:00 +0100
              Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:33 +0200
                Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-25 13:47 +0100
                OT: Re: Nuclear plants. Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-27 09:45 +0100
                Re: OT: Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-09-27 12:36 +0100
                Re: OT: Re: Nuclear plants. Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-03 11:24 +0100
                Re: OT: Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-03 11:42 +0100
                Re: OT: Re: Nuclear plants. Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-10-04 10:52 +0000
                Re: OT: Re: Nuclear plants. The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-04 12:29 +0100
                Re: OT: Re: Nuclear plants. Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-10-04 15:10 +0000
                Re: OT: Re: Nuclear plants. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-03 14:14 +0200

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