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Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #29507

Re: Losing my religion(?)

From Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net>
Newsgroups comp.sys.mac.system
Subject Re: Losing my religion(?)
Date 2012-08-15 10:45 -0700
Organization lined up neatly
Message-ID <k0gn7d$3v3$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <130820122332101451%star@sky.net> <a90ho6Fbi6U1@mid.individual.net> <slrnk2m50n.1trd.g.kreme@mbp55.local> <502b2928$0$44471$c3e8da3$f017e9df@news.astraweb.com> <a90ou1Fp3gU1@mid.individual.net>

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On 2012-08-15 05:04:00 +0000, Rich Gray said:

> JF Mezei wrote:
>> Lewis wrote:
>> 
>>> No it doesn't corrupt anything at all. This is a complete and utter
>>> misstatement of facts. The original unedited file is not lost,
>>> discarded, overwritten, nor destroyed.
>> 
>> Based on my understanding, at the unix level, the actual file is fully
>> overwritten when the document is saved.  a "cat" of the file will show
>> the new modified contents and the old contets are not available.
> 
> I did this experiment under Lion:  In a terminal window, I cd'd to the 
> desktop and created a .txt file using vi.  I exited vi and opened the 
> file in TextEdit.  I then simulated the proverbial cat walking across 
> the keyboard and quit TextEdit.  It closed without warning.  I 
> re-opened the file in vi and the 'cat tracks' were there.

That's precisely what happens.
> 
>> So autosave will "corrupt" the file.
> 
> Indeed.

Correct.  Which is, as I've been saying, why file locking is so 
important.  From the very beginning, I've been saying that autosave and 
versions is still an unfinished idea.  Apple tried to make it 
"interfaceless" and make it "just happen" but version control and such 
automation is simply not that easy.

In more serious revision control systems, there are several variations 
of how to handle locking of files, generally important when more than 
one person may be modifying the same file, but similarly important in 
keeping unintended changes from getting checked in.

In one model, before you may modify a file, you needed to check it out 
and lock it - preventing anyone else from editing the file - before you 
could edit it.

In another model, your copy was always able to be edited to your 
heart's content immediately.

In both cases, your changes would not be checked into the system at all 
until you explicitly checked them in.

Apple wanted to do away with the "you need to check in your changes" 
part - because folks who aren't trained in revision control systems 
wouldn't remember to do their check-ins.

But Apple also went with the lazy system of "you can edit immediately 
without having to check out and lock your copy".  And *I* think that 
was the mistake.  Until you declare "I *am* going to edit this file" 
the file should not be editable.

The old system, before versions, was "you can edit this file 
immediately without having to check it out, but if you forget to save 
your changes, you may be screwed, and by the way, if you edit the file, 
since you've been training yourself to save all the time, you may 
overwrite the file when you didn't mean to, and you won't be able to 
recover the old version unless you are using Time Machine".

Unfortunately, they've muddled it.  As we've demonstrated, (a) 
unintended changes can get saved to a file - dangerously - because they 
get saved even if you never hit "save"; and (b) it's not enough to say 
"okay, then you can go to Versions and get back to what you intended" 
because (i) you shouldn't have to do that; and (ii) because - and 
here's the other dangerous part - the versions database is hidden and 
gets lost without warning if you move the file to another filesystem or 
are using a sync system like Dropbox.

Unless the version history is tightly tied to the file, so that it 
cannot get easily lost, it's *not* enough to say "just go to versions 
and revert".  And even if it were enough, that's not a very reasonable 
solution.  You shouldn't have to go out of your way to recover from 
problems that shouldn't happen anyway.  Accidents (ie. cat walking on 
keyboard) happen.  It's important to make recovery from those accidents 
easy (hance, in theory, being able to roll back a version), but it's 
even more important to minimize the likelihood of those accidents 
happening in the first place (by making it harder to accidently screw 
up your file in the first place).  It's the difference between having 
airbags and avoiding the obstacle in the first place.  Obviously you 
should have airbags.  But even better is not crashing the car in the 
first place, so before you worry about airbages, you make steering 
secure and predictable.

> 
>> Just because some GUI application allows you to reconstitute previous
>> version of the file from a "versions" database does not detract that the
>> file itself is fully overwrtten whenever you save or auto-save it.
> 
> Well, I expect it to be overwritten on a Save. ;)  Auto-save is dangerous.

I agree.  As it was in Lion, in my opinion, it was still "beta" - not a 
fully fleshed out product, and still with signficant flaws.  It should 
be optional, like the "natural" scrolling and the hidden scrollbars.  I 
do not understand why it wasn't optional.  But I do think, overall, 
it's a *great* thing and once they get some of the things we're talking 
about here worked out, it'll be a vast improvement for most people.

It's certainly *not* the catastrophe that people have been painting it.

> 
>> The problem with auto-save is that
>> one doesn't know ifhen it decides to mofidy a file  or can't prevent it
>> from modifying a file you have no intention of modifying.
> 
> Right.  The program which can change a file is usually the viewer too. 
> "Just looking" is now dangerous.

Unless the file is locked.  Which happens automatically after two 
weeks.  It *should* happen a lot sooner than that.  The more I work 
with it, the more I'm convinced of this.

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Thread

Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-12 17:06 -0400
  Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-12 19:55 -0400
    Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-12 20:24 -0400
      Re: Losing my religion(?) isw <isw@witzend.com> - 2012-08-12 23:19 -0700
        Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-13 03:06 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-13 11:42 -0700
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-13 12:11 -0700
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-13 12:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:46 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 12:32 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:32 +0000
              Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-13 16:08 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-13 18:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 23:32 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-14 23:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 03:14 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:51 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 07:52 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-15 18:06 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 00:44 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-15 01:04 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 15:35 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 10:45 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 13:59 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:38 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 06:11 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Rich Gray <devnull@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-08-15 00:46 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 08:04 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 09:24 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 10:52 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 14:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 12:01 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 15:42 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 22:40 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 09:56 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 22:57 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 03:28 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 03:29 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 20:33 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 22:50 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 22:27 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 01:32 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-16 09:14 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-13 20:21 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 06:13 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:56 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 12:19 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:37 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 17:52 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:07 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 22:55 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:17 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:15 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:50 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-15 18:15 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:49 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:18 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:08 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 15:45 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> - 2012-08-15 10:14 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 17:05 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2012-08-15 10:26 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 07:20 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) sbt <dogbreath@chaseabone.com.invalid> - 2012-08-14 08:51 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 09:31 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 10:09 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:19 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 12:36 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:16 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 08:58 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:39 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-14 14:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 14:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 13:19 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-14 12:05 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 15:11 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 13:12 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:17 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 18:08 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-16 09:37 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 18:49 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 10:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-17 16:52 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 16:19 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 16:54 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-17 20:13 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-17 18:09 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-18 06:34 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-18 18:40 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 13:19 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 14:46 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 16:45 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 15:59 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 17:05 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-18 13:49 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 16:02 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-18 19:09 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> - 2012-08-18 22:05 -0500
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-19 05:25 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-19 13:42 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-19 03:39 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-18 17:19 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:43 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:41 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-15 01:05 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-15 08:02 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-15 15:36 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-15 23:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 04:27 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-16 06:35 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 09:26 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 13:02 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-16 12:57 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2012-08-16 15:49 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-17 04:57 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 09:36 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-16 14:43 -0400
                Auto-Save, Ask to save changes, etc (Re: Losing my religion(?)) Bread <BreadWithSpam@Fractious.net> - 2012-08-16 12:31 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 20:21 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-16 03:49 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 12:54 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:28 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:04 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 14:26 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-14 22:37 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:28 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:22 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:10 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 16:17 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:06 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 21:23 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2012-08-15 09:50 -0600
                Re: Losing my religion(?) nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-14 09:39 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:28 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 19:43 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 12:36 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:04 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-15 21:33 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 20:31 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2012-08-16 13:35 +1200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:31 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:28 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 07:16 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 12:50 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:29 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 15:14 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 17:52 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:14 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 19:36 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:58 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-14 21:23 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 07:58 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-15 04:01 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2012-08-15 09:29 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:34 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2012-08-14 13:41 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-14 22:03 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-15 02:44 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-14 20:25 -0700
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 00:03 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-15 16:13 +0200
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-16 00:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-16 07:19 +0200
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:49 -0600
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 05:51 +0000
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 11:10 +0200
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 03:46 -0600
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2012-08-14 21:30 +0000
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> - 2012-08-14 16:15 -0600
        Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 08:03 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2012-08-13 08:54 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 14:15 -0400
          Re: Losing my religion(?) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-08-13 09:22 -0400
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 13:25 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> - 2012-08-13 15:06 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 20:38 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> - 2012-08-13 20:53 -0400
                Re: Losing my religion(?) Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2012-08-13 21:47 -0400
              Re: Losing my religion(?) Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2012-08-14 11:01 +0200
            Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-15 19:57 -0400
        Re: Losing my religion(?) Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2012-08-14 18:17 -0400

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