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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #164962 > unrolled thread

Is it a lost cause?

Started by"gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid>
First post2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
Last post2016-06-28 16:19 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 1000+ — 73 participants
Thread has 1303 articles; only the first 1000 are indexed.

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Thread has 1303 articles; showing the first 1000 in depth-first order. Use the flat group view to see the rest.


Contents

  Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-13 19:32 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:02 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 17:43 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-13 23:05 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:52 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-14 06:39 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:22 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:54 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? timcaffrey420@gmail.com - 2016-06-14 11:47 -0700
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-15 14:17 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? timcaffrey420@gmail.com - 2016-06-15 14:03 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-15 14:18 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-16 12:45 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:52 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:55 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:53 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 13:27 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:41 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 15:05 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 14:09 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:14 -0500
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 19:48 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-15 20:05 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 21:29 -0500
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:07 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-13 23:02 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:56 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:13 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:39 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-17 08:46 +0200
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-13 23:44 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:57 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-14 09:41 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 12:09 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:14 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:54 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:57 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 13:02 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 14:45 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:22 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:56 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:30 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-14 10:21 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-15 08:19 -0500
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 19:59 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:48 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:39 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:56 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-14 09:48 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:08 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 00:18 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:57 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:05 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:24 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 13:03 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:53 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 13:10 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 12:28 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-15 15:37 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:19 +0300
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:52 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:08 +0300
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-17 16:09 +0300
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-17 10:34 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 13:00 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 22:58 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:03 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:24 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-15 18:07 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-15 18:06 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-20 13:25 -0700
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-20 18:25 -0700
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-21 16:11 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-21 21:13 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-21 19:49 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-22 07:33 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-22 09:04 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-22 09:23 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-22 05:40 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-24 18:58 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 03:47 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 23:55 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:03 +0300
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 10:20 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:43 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 04:38 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-02 14:00 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 08:13 -0700
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 12:09 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 12:36 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:32 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 07:49 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-15 04:54 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 12:52 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-01 22:17 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:10 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-02 21:35 +0300
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 20:45 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 22:14 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-02 21:42 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:33 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:45 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:36 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:20 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:38 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 12:03 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:18 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 15:17 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 18:28 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 03:14 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:17 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:53 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 09:55 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:15 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:42 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:51 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:45 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:54 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:10 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 20:16 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 22:12 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 21:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:15 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-04 11:03 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-05 10:12 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:26 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:35 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 18:20 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Alan Frisbie <Usenet03_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> - 2016-07-04 09:16 -0700
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-04 09:01 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 15:54 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:55 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:11 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:01 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:32 +0200
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 19:47 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-05 17:11 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 14:44 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 18:19 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:01 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-07-04 16:50 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 13:27 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:39 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-04 16:27 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:30 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 17:31 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:30 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:57 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 14:51 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-05 02:49 +1000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:26 +1000
                                  Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 23:18 +0000
                                    Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) - 2016-07-04 08:24 +0000
                                      Re: software origami, was Is it a lost cause? David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-07-04 09:45 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:20 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 16:15 -0400
                            Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:55 +0000
                              Re: ancient history, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:35 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-03 11:22 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-03 12:33 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-03 22:57 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-04 15:47 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:24 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-07-05 10:12 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 22:31 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 13:10 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:47 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 21:56 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 00:44 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 00:55 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:21 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 11:39 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:21 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:06 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-03 13:53 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 13:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 01:16 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 22:35 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 23:23 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 00:07 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:20 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 13:37 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 22:41 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 13:22 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 10:59 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 14:49 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 15:33 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-04 12:06 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-04 10:00 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-05 01:42 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:52 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? sidd@situ.com (sidd) - 2016-07-05 22:59 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 06:44 -0400
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-04 09:45 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-03 07:11 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 19:12 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-03 11:14 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:04 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 07:49 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 21:53 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-07-04 17:33 -0400
                  Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 19:05 +0100
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:05 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 08:30 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 12:03 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 12:35 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-05 18:03 +0100
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:39 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-04 06:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:39 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:40 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 18:42 +0000
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:53 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 15:20 -0400
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:50 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-04 16:28 -0500
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:37 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:03 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 21:08 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:13 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 06:36 -0400
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 12:37 +0100
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 13:21 +0100
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:12 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0200
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 19:52 +0100
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Raymond Wiker <rwiker@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 21:11 +0200
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:30 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:51 +0000
                                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 20:09 +0100
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 20:32 +0100
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-06 00:44 +0000
                                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 17:05 -0500
                                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 19:47 -0400
                                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 20:00 -0500
                                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-05 21:16 -0600
                                      Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0000
                                        Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                          Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-06 15:01 +0000
                                            Re: tiny old computers, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:49 -0400
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-06 10:45 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:00 +0200
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-05 20:46 -0400
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 07:23 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 04:30 -0400
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 10:44 +0100
                                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-06 11:34 +0200
                                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:32 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 19:56 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:52 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:25 +0000
                          Re: stacks, was self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 06:10 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:35 -0500
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-07-05 17:18 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:05 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-05 21:12 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 21:49 +0000
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-06 06:12 -0500
                                  Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-06 11:21 -0700
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-06 19:41 +0000
                                    Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-07 08:35 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-05 08:51 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:05 +0100
                      Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-04 23:04 +0300
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-07-04 20:35 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:54 +0000
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-04 21:12 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-04 20:49 +0000
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-04 21:54 +0100
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 14:16 +0300
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:40 -0500
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-05 18:51 +0100
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-07-05 21:08 +0300
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-04 17:21 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:28 +0100
                        Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:38 +0000
                          Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 17:53 +0100
                            Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-04 14:52 -0600
                              Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-04 17:22 -0400
                                Re: self-modifying code, Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:39 +0000
                    Re: self-modifying code, was Is it a lost cause? John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> - 2016-07-04 16:35 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:50 -0400
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:00 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-13 23:03 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 23:37 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-13 20:43 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:05 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:07 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-14 10:20 -0700
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-14 19:16 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-15 08:01 -0500
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 13:06 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-15 14:26 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 03:24 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 08:43 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:11 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 07:56 -0700
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-02 10:30 -0500
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-07-02 16:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 17:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 16:58 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-02 11:52 -0700
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:38 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-02 06:23 -0500
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:02 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 06:09 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:01 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:09 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:29 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:30 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 08:57 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:14 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 08:36 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btopenworld.com> - 2016-06-16 12:46 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:25 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:22 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-02 22:33 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:24 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:02 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 12:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 09:38 -0400
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:35 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:36 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 21:02 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:32 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 17:00 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-06-18 18:14 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-06-18 12:25 -0500
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-13 20:11 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:04 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Mike Tomlinson <mike@jasper.org.uk> - 2016-06-14 23:26 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:43 -0500
          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:48 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Darren Salt <newsspam@moreofthespa.m.invalid> - 2016-06-17 03:50 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 10:08 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:42 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:50 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:52 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Luke A. Guest <laguest@archeia.com> - 2016-07-01 20:28 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-01 20:21 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-01 23:10 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-01 22:35 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:35 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 09:53 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 11:24 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 11:21 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? mm0fmf <none@invalid.com> - 2016-07-02 12:39 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:01 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-02 13:51 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:32 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-02 19:51 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 22:06 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-03 10:41 -0700
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 11:29 -0500
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-01 18:39 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 10:36 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 18:56 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 19:14 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 15:28 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:23 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-03 17:35 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 19:48 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2016-07-03 15:01 -0400
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-03 13:17 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-07-06 01:24 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:29 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-05 12:09 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-05 17:38 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 18:23 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:30 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-07-06 09:02 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:29 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 23:07 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 12:45 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-06 09:05 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-06 13:52 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Gerard Schildberger <gerard46@rrt.net> - 2016-07-06 15:43 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 07:37 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-06 08:51 -0700
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-06 15:09 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 00:26 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:12 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-04 12:47 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 17:43 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-02 18:40 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-02 13:09 -0700
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-02 23:01 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-02 19:19 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-03 00:55 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-07-03 08:59 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:12 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-03 08:10 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-03 11:22 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-07-03 12:24 -0500
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-07-02 07:05 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-02 12:59 +0000
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 09:14 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:26 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-02 13:00 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-02 13:46 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-02 14:59 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-02 12:27 -0400
              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:17 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-03 15:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:41 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-04 14:17 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 15:10 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 16:09 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 17:18 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:28 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:34 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-07 14:45 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 16:27 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-07 11:53 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-07 16:01 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:33 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-07 18:13 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 19:30 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-08 12:18 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:38 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:19 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 14:22 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-04 12:42 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-04 22:30 +0200
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-05 13:32 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-05 15:25 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-06 21:20 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-06 21:52 -0400
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-08 12:12 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-08 12:48 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-08 07:30 -0500
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-08 09:22 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-08 16:00 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2016-07-08 08:43 -0600
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-07-08 14:49 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-08 18:45 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-08 17:32 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-07-08 11:35 -0700
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:51 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-07 07:47 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-07 23:41 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-09 00:46 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 12:51 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-09 14:07 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 13:05 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 14:12 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:21 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-09 19:35 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:55 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-07-09 10:40 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-09 09:02 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:28 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-09 13:09 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-10 19:39 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-07-10 19:29 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-10 21:03 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2016-07-10 22:59 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-11 02:35 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Elliott Roper <nospam@yrl.co.uk> - 2016-07-11 09:21 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-11 01:31 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:35 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2016-07-10 14:38 -0500
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net> - 2016-07-10 21:29 -0700
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 07:25 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-07-12 07:04 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-07-12 11:35 -0500
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2016-07-12 16:56 -0500
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-11 18:25 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 18:00 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 14:13 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-09 15:25 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-09 16:39 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 16:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:43 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-09 21:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 18:25 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-09 18:53 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-07-09 20:55 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-10 12:06 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-10 14:05 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-11 11:32 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-11 14:04 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 10:00 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-11 15:58 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 11:38 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-11 13:19 -0700
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-12 09:43 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-11 22:31 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 14:48 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-11 15:16 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 11:46 -0400
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-11 17:13 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:50 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 16:13 -0400
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-12 12:46 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-11 11:00 -0700
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 16:17 -0400
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-12 12:41 -0700
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-12 22:09 -0400
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 16:23 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-07-11 16:41 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-12 12:34 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-12 10:36 -0500
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-13 12:48 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-12 08:43 -0700
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:05 +0200
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:56 +0200
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 11:29 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-11 10:52 -0700
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-11 19:44 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-07-11 13:30 -0700
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 21:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-12 00:06 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-12 12:34 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-12 12:44 -0700
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-12 20:23 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-11 22:49 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-12 11:44 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-12 16:58 +0100
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-12 18:44 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-12 10:36 -0500
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-12 16:12 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-12 13:34 -0500
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-12 19:40 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-12 17:31 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-12 12:34 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-11 11:29 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 16:57 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 16:01 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:27 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:46 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 18:00 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-11 18:39 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-11 11:03 -0700
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 18:31 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-11 16:44 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-11 17:59 +0100
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-07-11 20:28 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-07-12 07:51 -0700
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-07-12 10:14 -0500
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-07-12 08:31 -0700
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-12 12:06 -0400
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-13 12:49 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-12 18:13 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-12 18:04 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-12 17:52 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-07-13 09:09 +0100
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-13 15:56 -0400
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-13 12:43 +0000
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-14 12:18 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-12 18:16 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-07-12 21:57 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-12 13:23 -0500
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-12 19:46 +0100
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-12 19:09 +0000
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-07-13 03:36 +0000
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-13 06:38 +0100
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-07-13 07:23 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ibmekon <Ibmekon> - 2016-07-12 20:36 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-13 12:48 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-07-12 20:48 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 06:34 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-07-13 13:34 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-07-13 15:46 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 13:23 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-07-08 10:56 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-08 19:57 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-07-05 09:49 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:04 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:20 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-05 16:43 +0200
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-07-05 19:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-05 20:32 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-05 17:19 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-07 01:48 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-07 15:25 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-08 12:18 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-08 11:06 -0500
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-07-10 12:25 -0500
                                Compiler Design was Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-07-08 19:21 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-07-07 15:30 +0000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-07 17:36 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? pechter@t61.(none) (William Pechter) - 2016-07-08 20:43 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-09 14:18 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl - 2016-07-06 00:28 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-07-03 17:32 +0200
          Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-07-02 13:09 -0700
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-07-03 09:13 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dr J R Stockton <reply1600@merlyn.demon.co.uk.invalid> - 2016-07-02 19:20 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rambo <Rambo@thisaintreal.org> - 2016-06-13 20:07 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-13 21:42 +0200
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:43 +0100
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:12 +0000
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:17 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:31 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-13 21:25 +0100
      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:44 +0100
    Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-13 20:29 +0000
      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-13 21:48 -0400
        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 08:11 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:14 +0000
              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:23 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 08:33 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 09:46 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 10:22 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:36 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 12:01 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:59 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-14 12:30 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:21 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:51 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-14 15:24 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? colonel_hack@yahoo.com - 2016-06-15 16:30 -0700
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-15 20:07 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 09:38 +0200
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 09:23 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:05 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 10:44 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-16 21:11 -0700
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-17 09:00 +0200
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-14 17:07 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:14 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:45 +0200
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 20:34 -0400
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:44 +0200
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-15 17:21 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 23:15 -0400
                Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:05 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:10 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:29 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 09:41 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:42 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:29 +0000
        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 08:47 +0100
          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 06:24 -0400
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 11:37 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob Morley <nospam@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:42 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 13:53 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-06-14 13:00 +0000
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:20 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Brian Reay <no.sp@m.com> - 2016-06-14 08:35 -0700
          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 11:45 +0100
            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 15:18 +0100
              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-14 15:57 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:03 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:13 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:37 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:41 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-14 12:25 -0400
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:19 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-14 15:09 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:02 +0000
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-14 15:36 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:40 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:09 -0500
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 18:23 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:50 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 17:02 -0500
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:02 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 21:13 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-14 20:59 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 22:19 +0100
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 23:23 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 10:01 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:40 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-15 12:19 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:37 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:39 +0100
                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:10 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 16:19 +0100
                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 01:59 +1000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-14 17:06 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-14 12:15 -0500
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-14 19:50 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 19:44 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 10:55 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 11:49 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-15 11:31 +0000
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-15 08:27 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:29 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-15 18:20 +0200
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:27 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-15 17:18 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:58 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-16 07:38 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 08:59 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:30 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-16 13:34 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-16 07:49 -0500
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-17 12:26 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 13:06 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-17 10:44 -0700
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-17 13:02 -0500
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 19:36 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 19:33 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-17 20:15 -0500
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 09:55 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:49 -0700
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 12:08 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 14:10 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 20:11 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Steve Hall <sweet_stevie@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-17 19:42 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:54 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:48 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:07 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-18 08:38 -0700
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:07 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 13:00 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:10 +0100
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-19 13:31 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 16:05 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 19:04 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2016-06-16 09:37 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-16 18:24 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-17 12:53 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-17 15:26 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-20 13:39 -0700
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:36 +0200
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-21 17:13 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-21 19:10 +0100
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-21 21:00 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-22 12:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 14:42 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-20 13:31 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:30 +0100
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-14 13:55 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-15 20:12 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 11:18 +0100
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:47 +1000
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 16:53 +0100
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-15 22:37 +0100
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-16 09:49 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 11:06 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 09:06 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 10:46 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 10:15 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 17:46 +0200
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-16 17:38 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 16:16 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-16 17:06 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 17:13 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-16 17:14 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2016-06-19 18:35 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-19 10:05 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-19 20:18 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:16 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 06:23 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-20 02:45 -0500
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 09:39 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-19 10:06 -0700
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-19 20:21 +0200
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-06-17 08:03 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 08:07 -0400
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                    Re: Is it a lost cause? David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> - 2016-06-15 10:23 +0100
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-15 13:05 +0000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-16 01:55 +1000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-16 12:30 +0000
                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Levi <gordon@address.invalid> - 2016-06-18 02:03 +1000
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-17 16:24 +0000
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-17 18:53 +0100
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-17 20:05 -0700
                        Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 12:27 -0500
                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 17:04 -0400
                            Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-17 16:29 -0500
                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-17 22:35 +0000
                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-17 19:54 -0400
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 10:15 +0200
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 10:32 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:05 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:52 -0700
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 17:32 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-06-18 17:36 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 09:08 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:47 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 14:26 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 13:59 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:05 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-19 13:31 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:33 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 13:58 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 11:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-18 18:52 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:53 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-18 15:37 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:45 +0100
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 09:53 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> - 2016-06-18 11:02 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 11:13 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:35 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:42 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:47 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 19:14 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2016-06-18 16:01 -0500
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:27 +0200
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2016-06-18 04:56 -0700
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-18 08:43 -0700
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:09 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-18 16:51 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 19:20 +0200
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? cb@elaine.df.lth.se (Christian Brunschen) - 2016-06-18 17:51 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-18 21:31 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-18 21:28 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-18 21:51 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:31 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-18 13:11 +0200
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-18 15:57 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-18 14:59 -0400
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:32 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-20 11:01 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-20 13:54 -0500
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-18 12:59 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-18 17:13 +0300
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 14:40 +0000
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 16:56 +0100
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2016-06-18 08:30 -0700
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-18 10:49 +0000
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-18 12:03 +0100
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-19 18:31 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-19 21:49 +0300
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> - 2016-06-20 07:41 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:49 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:54 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-19 19:55 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-19 15:24 -0400
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2016-06-19 14:13 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-19 22:12 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-06-19 19:24 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:27 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 11:25 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Rob <nomail@example.com> - 2016-06-20 12:10 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2016-06-20 17:24 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:29 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 13:37 +0100
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2016-06-20 00:29 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-20 06:25 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-20 06:57 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 10:09 +0300
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-20 08:31 -0500
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-20 09:47 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2016-06-20 18:43 +0300
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> - 2016-06-20 18:09 +0000
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-20 16:15 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2016-06-22 15:09 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-20 13:50 -0500
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) - 2016-07-03 05:43 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2016-07-03 12:07 +0100
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-07-03 13:33 +0000
                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-20 13:53 -0700
                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-20 16:30 -0500
                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-20 23:33 +0100
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-20 19:55 -0400
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-21 11:02 -0500
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-21 19:02 +0100
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-21 20:30 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-22 12:47 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-27 13:06 -0700
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-28 05:29 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-28 17:23 +0000
                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-21 11:52 +0000
                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-21 20:16 -0400
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-21 22:55 -0400
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-22 05:40 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 04:56 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-22 06:59 -0400
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2016-06-22 17:26 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@Last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-22 12:47 +0200
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-23 13:08 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-23 15:57 +0200
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-24 12:33 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-24 17:29 +0200
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-24 17:55 +0000
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-25 13:10 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-25 13:10 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com - 2016-06-27 13:18 -0700
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2016-06-27 19:16 -0400
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-28 10:17 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 10:29 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-28 11:46 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 13:10 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-28 14:49 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 18:41 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-28 17:23 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-28 15:59 -0400
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? "gareth G4SDW GQRP #3339" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2016-06-28 13:01 +0100
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 13:09 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-28 12:16 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2016-06-28 08:36 -0400
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-29 11:53 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? mausg@mail.com - 2016-06-28 14:47 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-28 18:41 +0000
                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-22 12:47 +0000
                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? "Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> - 2016-06-22 19:02 -0500
                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-23 13:08 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-23 14:02 +0000
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-24 12:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-24 12:47 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2016-06-24 13:47 +0000
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-25 13:10 +0000
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Lawrence Statton NK1G <lawrence@senguio.mx> - 2016-06-23 09:08 -0500
                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-23 15:51 +0200
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-06-23 18:33 +0200
                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-24 12:33 +0000
                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-24 15:37 +0100
                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-25 13:10 +0000
                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-25 20:50 +0100
                                                            Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-26 13:10 +0000
                                                              Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-26 20:10 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-26 21:38 +0000
                                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-27 05:42 +0100
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-27 08:33 +0200
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-27 13:58 +0100
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2016-06-27 19:05 +0000
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-27 20:54 +0100
                                                                Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-27 11:37 +0000
                                                                  Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-27 14:10 +0100
                                                                    Re: Is it a lost cause? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2016-06-28 12:16 +0000
                                                                      Re: Is it a lost cause? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2016-06-28 14:06 +0100
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2016-06-28 14:02 +0000
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-28 14:27 +0000
                                                                        Re: Is it a lost cause? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2016-06-28 16:45 +0200
                                                                          Re: Is it a lost cause? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2016-06-28 16:19 +0000

Page 9 of 50 — ← Prev page 1 … 7 8 [9] 10 11 … 50  Next page →


#166619

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-07-05 15:11 +0100
Message-ID<20160705151142.e7e0cb78b0f7a03f7d7af4a1@eircom.net>
In reply to#166608
On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:55:48 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:

<snip>

> > You recall incorrectly :-).  Read any *.MAC PDP-10 sources.  We
> > had writers who would document what the code did.  Before the code
> > was written we had product plans, project plans, design specs,
> > and hardware prints, functional specs.  There was an effort to
> > get programmers to write extensive comments when they coded but it
> > was a waste of time none of us had.  Fixing code had to be done but
> > fixing comments did not.
> 
> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely 
> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with 
> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning, 
> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming 
> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that 
> professional....

	Your conclusion does not appear to follow from Barb's statement,
indeed it appears to be in complete contradiction of it.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#166627

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-05 16:01 +0100
Message-ID<nlgi4n$jj1$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#166619
On 05/07/16 15:11, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:55:48 +0100
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> You recall incorrectly :-).  Read any *.MAC PDP-10 sources.  We
>>> had writers who would document what the code did.  Before the code
>>> was written we had product plans, project plans, design specs,
>>> and hardware prints, functional specs.  There was an effort to
>>> get programmers to write extensive comments when they coded but it
>>> was a waste of time none of us had.  Fixing code had to be done but
>>> fixing comments did not.
>>
>> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely
>> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with
>> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning,
>> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming
>> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that
>> professional....
>
> 	Your conclusion does not appear to follow from Barb's statement,
> indeed it appears to be in complete contradiction of it.
>
His  own paragraph contradicts itself.

-- 
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

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#166713

FromMorten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid>
Date2016-07-05 17:32 +0200
Message-ID<nh0t4d-3ac.ln1@sambook.reistad.name>
In reply to#166619
In article <20160705151142.e7e0cb78b0f7a03f7d7af4a1@eircom.net>,
Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:55:48 +0100
>The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> > You recall incorrectly :-).  Read any *.MAC PDP-10 sources.  We
>> > had writers who would document what the code did.  Before the code
>> > was written we had product plans, project plans, design specs,
>> > and hardware prints, functional specs.  There was an effort to
>> > get programmers to write extensive comments when they coded but it
>> > was a waste of time none of us had.  Fixing code had to be done but
>> > fixing comments did not.
>> 
>> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely 
>> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with 
>> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning, 
>> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming 
>> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that 
>> professional....
>
>	Your conclusion does not appear to follow from Barb's statement,
>indeed it appears to be in complete contradiction of it.

Barb was herding these 'permies' (which I cannot find in my glossary)
and got out some of the best documentation I have seen, before or after.
She is one of my heroes for this feat.

Yes, DEC ran according to best practices of ca 1970 when it came to
software development. They had some of the best people, but there was
in effect no management at all, the inmates ran the asylum.

But the quality of the professionals at DEC was good enough (excellent
would I say) to live without effective management for more than a decade.
This is no mean feat.

But it was a "duck pond management" situation (calm on the surface, but
below; paddle like hell). This became unsustainable. The leadership at
DEC also were clueless about the drivers of their business, and this
made the whole business come to a halt when the micros hit.

They nearly folded in May 83, when they had to scrounge to get 
effective hardware out the door. 

I asked about source control a few weeks ago, and Barb confirmed
that they didn't use it, with some reservations for the later VAX/VMS
line. 

So, yes, in a sense you are right. But the success of DEC was based
on a few hundred excellent people that did their jobs outstandingly
well even if they never had the proper tools for work.

In hindsight. But I saw it happen in 82 onwards.

-- mrr

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#166724

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-05 19:47 -0400
Message-ID<183668073.489455049.654235.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#166713
Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
> In article <20160705151142.e7e0cb78b0f7a03f7d7af4a1@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:55:48 +0100
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> 
>> <snip>
>> 
>>>> You recall incorrectly :-).  Read any *.MAC PDP-10 sources.  We
>>>> had writers who would document what the code did.  Before the code
>>>> was written we had product plans, project plans, design specs,
>>>> and hardware prints, functional specs.  There was an effort to
>>>> get programmers to write extensive comments when they coded but it
>>>> was a waste of time none of us had.  Fixing code had to be done but
>>>> fixing comments did not.
>>> 
>>> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely 
>>> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with 
>>> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning, 
>>> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming 
>>> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that 
>>> professional....
>> 
>> Your conclusion does not appear to follow from Barb's statement,
>> indeed it appears to be in complete contradiction of it.
> 
> Barb was herding these 'permies' (which I cannot find in my glossary)
> and got out some of the best documentation I have seen, before or after.
> She is one of my heroes for this feat.
> 
> Yes, DEC ran according to best practices of ca 1970 when it came to
> software development. They had some of the best people, but there was
> in effect no management at all, the inmates ran the asylum.
> 
> But the quality of the professionals at DEC was good enough (excellent
> would I say) to live without effective management for more than a decade.
> This is no mean feat.

That's probably _why_ they did so well.  Management may be able to do the
vision thing okay, but things work best when they keep out of the
day-to-day.

> 
> But it was a "duck pond management" situation (calm on the surface, but
> below; paddle like hell). This became unsustainable. The leadership at
> DEC also were clueless about the drivers of their business, and this
> made the whole business come to a halt when the micros hit.
> 
> They nearly folded in May 83, when they had to scrounge to get 
> effective hardware out the door. 
> 
> I asked about source control a few weeks ago, and Barb confirmed
> that they didn't use it, with some reservations for the later VAX/VMS
> line. 
> 
> So, yes, in a sense you are right. But the success of DEC was based
> on a few hundred excellent people that did their jobs outstandingly
> well even if they never had the proper tools for work.
> 
> In hindsight. But I saw it happen in 82 onwards.
> 
> -- mrr
> 



-- 
Pete

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#166725

FromGene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net>
Date2016-07-05 17:11 -0700
Message-ID<u3jonb5p4opn41nqb8pbdcbu6uadabkrlr@4ax.com>
In reply to#166713
On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 17:32:39 +0200, Morten Reistad
<first@last.name.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

>Barb was herding these 'permies' (which I cannot find in my glossary)

     Presumably, permanent employees.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#166789

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
Message-ID<PM000536F71DD437BD@aca416c1.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#166713
Morten Reistad wrote:
> In article <20160705151142.e7e0cb78b0f7a03f7d7af4a1@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot  <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:55:48 +0100
>>The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>> > You recall incorrectly :-).  Read any *.MAC PDP-10 sources.  We
>>> > had writers who would document what the code did.  Before the code
>>> > was written we had product plans, project plans, design specs,
>>> > and hardware prints, functional specs.  There was an effort to
>>> > get programmers to write extensive comments when they coded but it
>>> > was a waste of time none of us had.  Fixing code had to be done but
>>> > fixing comments did not.
>>>
>>> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely
>>> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with
>>> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning,
>>> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming
>>> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that
>>> professional....
>>
>>    Your conclusion does not appear to follow from Barb's statement,
>>indeed it appears to be in complete contradiction of it.
>
> Barb was herding these 'permies' (which I cannot find in my glossary)
> and got out some of the best documentation I have seen, before or after.
> She is one of my heroes for this feat.
>
> Yes, DEC ran according to best practices of ca 1970 when it came to
> software development. They had some of the best people, but there was
> in effect no management at all, the inmates ran the asylum.
>
> But the quality of the professionals at DEC was good enough (excellent
> would I say) to live without effective management for more than a decade.
> This is no mean feat.
>
> But it was a "duck pond management" situation (calm on the surface, but
> below; paddle like hell). This became unsustainable. The leadership at
> DEC also were clueless about the drivers of their business, and this
> made the whole business come to a halt when the micros hit.
>
> They nearly folded in May 83, when they had to scrounge to get
> effective hardware out the door.
>
> I asked about source control a few weeks ago, and Barb confirmed
> that they didn't use it, with some reservations for the later VAX/VMS
> line.

Ah, I misread your question.  We didn't have control using software
tools like you od.  Our procedures were our source controls.
Do you want me to describe them?

>
> So, yes, in a sense you are right. But the success of DEC was based
> on a few hundred excellent people that did their jobs outstandingly
> well even if they never had the proper tools for work.
>
> In hindsight. But I saw it happen in 82 onwards.

However, we always wrote the appropriate specs and had countless
design sessions before we did the projects.  There was no
randomness in our devlopment procedures and processes as the
OP wants to believe.

/BAH

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#166736

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-05 21:08 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e6242ffd6f9ae198a326@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#166608
In article <nlge92$ajs$3@news.albasani.net>, tnp@invalid.invalid says...
> 
> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
> > The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >> On 04/07/16 13:42, jmfbahciv wrote:
> >>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >>>> On 03/07/16 14:33, jmfbahciv wrote:
> >>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >>>>>> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a
> > band-aid
> >>>>>>>>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast
> > majority
> >>>>>>>>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage
> > to
> >>>>>>>>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was
> > certainly
> >>>>>>>>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of the
> >>>>>>>>> instruction.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO
> >>>>>>>>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a
> > high
> >>>>>>>>>>> level language. ...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something
> > worse.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sounds fun.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
> >>>>>>>>>           END
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
> >>>>>>>>> assigned goto was optional.)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked
> > them
> >>>>>>>>> with assigned gotos.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one didn't.
> > I
> >>>>>>>> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like bad
> >>>>>>>> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often
> >>>>>>> quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written program
> >>>>>>> it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular GO
> > TO
> >>>>>>> was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program also
> >>>>>>> included code from a COPY library.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that
> > the
> >>>>>>> sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to
> > execute
> >>>>>>> that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run
> > times.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not
> > use
> >>>>>>> ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of
> >>>>>>> structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing
> >>>>>> on very large data sets.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Was it originally?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I think so.
> >>>>
> >>>> Batch processing of payroll etc etc.
> >>>
> >>> I thought Admiral Hopper wrote COBOL.
> >>>
> >>
> >> She sure did!
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
> >>>>>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
> >>>>>> and data dictionary specifications.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You need to reexamine that assumption.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think I do.
> >>>> Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire, but the general
> >>>> progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst
> >>>
> >>> It depended on the shop.  I was all three including a few others.
> >>> IIRC, the Patriot missle's code was COBOL written in Natick Labs.
> >>>
> >>> COBOL was used when decimal arithmetic was important waybackwhen.
> >>> It also had the feature of being self-documenting if the variables
> >>> were chosen well.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Indeed. It took AGES to write
> >
> > Not really.
> >
> >> IIRC, but was maintainable and the chief
> >> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type accurately.
> >
> > Nope.  Programmers wrote code on coding sheets and then submitted them
> > to keypunchers (and later, tape prep types) who would type in the code.
> >
> >>
> >> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
> >> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
> >
> > You recall incorrectly :-).  Read any *.MAC PDP-10 sources.  We
> > had writers who would document what the code did.  Before the code
> > was written we had product plans, project plans, design specs,
> > and hardware prints, functional specs.  There was an effort to
> > get programmers to write extensive comments when they coded but it
> > was a waste of time none of us had.  Fixing code had to be done but
> > fixing comments did not.
> >
> >>
> >> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
> >> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used for
> >> what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining the logic,
> >> repeated as line by line comments down the block
> >
> > That was done in some shops.  It depended on the site.
> >
> >>
> >> The advantage over COBOL was that spelling wasn't important :-)
> >>
> >> The Joy of C of course was that you wrote it pretty much like assembler,
> >> but half of the comments were not necessary.
> >
> > Well, I'd disagree with that.  Reading C is no joy to me.
> 
> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely 
> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with 
> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning, 
> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming 
> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that 
> professional....

ROF,L.

You don't have a _clue_ who you're addressing, do you?

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#166792

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
Message-ID<PM000536F70E39257F@aca416c1.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#166608
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 04/07/16 13:42, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 03/07/16 14:33, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a
>> band-aid
>>>>>>>>>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast
>> majority
>>>>>>>>>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage
>> to
>>>>>>>>>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was
>> certainly
>>>>>>>>>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of
the
>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED
TO
>>>>>>>>>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a
>> high
>>>>>>>>>>>> level language. ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something
>> worse.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds fun.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it
were?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>>>>>>>>>>           END
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
>>>>>>>>>> assigned goto was optional.)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked
>> them
>>>>>>>>>> with assigned gotos.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one
didn't.
>> I
>>>>>>>>> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like
bad
>>>>>>>>> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often
>>>>>>>> quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written
program
>>>>>>>> it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular
GO
>> TO
>>>>>>>> was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program
also
>>>>>>>> included code from a COPY library.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that
>> the
>>>>>>>> sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to
>> execute
>>>>>>>> that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run
>> times.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not
>> use
>>>>>>>> ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of
>>>>>>>> structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing
>>>>>>> on very large data sets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Was it originally?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> Batch processing of payroll etc etc.
>>>>
>>>> I thought Admiral Hopper wrote COBOL.
>>>>
>>>
>>> She sure did!
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
>>>>>>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
>>>>>>> and data dictionary specifications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You need to reexamine that assumption.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think I do.
>>>>> Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire, but the general
>>>>> progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst
>>>>
>>>> It depended on the shop.  I was all three including a few others.
>>>> IIRC, the Patriot missle's code was COBOL written in Natick Labs.
>>>>
>>>> COBOL was used when decimal arithmetic was important waybackwhen.
>>>> It also had the feature of being self-documenting if the variables
>>>> were chosen well.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed. It took AGES to write
>>
>> Not really.
>>
>>> IIRC, but was maintainable and the chief
>>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
accurately.
>>
>> Nope.  Programmers wrote code on coding sheets and then submitted them
>> to keypunchers (and later, tape prep types) who would type in the code.
>>
>>>
>>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>
>> You recall incorrectly :-).  Read any *.MAC PDP-10 sources.  We
>> had writers who would document what the code did.  Before the code
>> was written we had product plans, project plans, design specs,
>> and hardware prints, functional specs.  There was an effort to
>> get programmers to write extensive comments when they coded but it
>> was a waste of time none of us had.  Fixing code had to be done but
>> fixing comments did not.
>>
>>>
>>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used for
>>> what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining the logic,
>>> repeated as line by line comments down the block
>>
>> That was done in some shops.  It depended on the site.
>>
>>>
>>> The advantage over COBOL was that spelling wasn't important :-)
>>>
>>> The Joy of C of course was that you wrote it pretty much like assembler,
>>> but half of the comments were not necessary.
>>
>> Well, I'd disagree with that.  Reading C is no joy to me.
>
> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely
> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with
> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning,
> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming
> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that
> professional....

You need to reexamine your assumption.

/BAH

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#166795

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2016-07-06 14:44 +0100
Message-ID<nlj1vj$b0n$1@news.albasani.net>
In reply to#166792
On 06/07/16 14:11, jmfbahciv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 05/07/16 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 04/07/16 13:42, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 03/07/16 14:33, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a
>>> band-aid
>>>>>>>>>>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast
>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage
>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was
>>> certainly
>>>>>>>>>>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of
> the
>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED
> TO
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a
>>> high
>>>>>>>>>>>>> level language. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something
>>> worse.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds fun.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it
> were?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>>>>>>>>>>>            END
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
>>>>>>>>>>> assigned goto was optional.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked
>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> with assigned gotos.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one
> didn't.
>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like
> bad
>>>>>>>>>> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often
>>>>>>>>> quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written
> program
>>>>>>>>> it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular
> GO
>>> TO
>>>>>>>>> was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program
> also
>>>>>>>>> included code from a COPY library.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that
>>> the
>>>>>>>>> sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to
>>> execute
>>>>>>>>> that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run
>>> times.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not
>>> use
>>>>>>>>> ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of
>>>>>>>>> structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing
>>>>>>>> on very large data sets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Was it originally?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Batch processing of payroll etc etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought Admiral Hopper wrote COBOL.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> She sure did!
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
>>>>>>>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
>>>>>>>> and data dictionary specifications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You need to reexamine that assumption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think I do.
>>>>>> Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire, but the general
>>>>>> progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst
>>>>>
>>>>> It depended on the shop.  I was all three including a few others.
>>>>> IIRC, the Patriot missle's code was COBOL written in Natick Labs.
>>>>>
>>>>> COBOL was used when decimal arithmetic was important waybackwhen.
>>>>> It also had the feature of being self-documenting if the variables
>>>>> were chosen well.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. It took AGES to write
>>>
>>> Not really.
>>>
>>>> IIRC, but was maintainable and the chief
>>>> attributes of being a programmer were the ability to touch type
> accurately.
>>>
>>> Nope.  Programmers wrote code on coding sheets and then submitted them
>>> to keypunchers (and later, tape prep types) who would type in the code.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ISTR the chief attribute of assembler programming was the ability to
>>>> write 60 lines of comment for 10 machine code instructions.
>>>
>>> You recall incorrectly :-).  Read any *.MAC PDP-10 sources.  We
>>> had writers who would document what the code did.  Before the code
>>> was written we had product plans, project plans, design specs,
>>> and hardware prints, functional specs.  There was an effort to
>>> get programmers to write extensive comments when they coded but it
>>> was a waste of time none of us had.  Fixing code had to be done but
>>> fixing comments did not.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Each code block had a header that explained what it was to do, the
>>>> inputs and the outputs, what registers or memory locations were used for
>>>> what variables, and usually a chunk of pseudo code explaining the logic,
>>>> repeated as line by line comments down the block
>>>
>>> That was done in some shops.  It depended on the site.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The advantage over COBOL was that spelling wasn't important :-)
>>>>
>>>> The Joy of C of course was that you wrote it pretty much like assembler,
>>>> but half of the comments were not necessary.
>>>
>>> Well, I'd disagree with that.  Reading C is no joy to me.
>>
>> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely
>> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with
>> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning,
>> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming
>> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that
>> professional....
>
> You need to reexamine your assumption.

Lighten up.

>
> /BAH
>


-- 
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly 
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential 
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations 
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with 
what it actually is.

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#166843

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-07-07 12:52 +0000
Message-ID<PM0005370AD8828CEA@aca40f79.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#166795
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/07/16 14:11, jmfbahciv wrote:


<snip>

>>> Its becoming fairly clear to me that you have worked in entirely
>>> undisciplined environments where code has been hacked into place, with
>>> little design thought, or specification, no comments worth mentioning,
>>> arbitrary varaiable names and 'clever' but unintelligble programming
>>> style the norm from smart arsed 'permies' who dony have to be that
>>> professional....
>>
>> You need to reexamine your assumption.
>
> Lighten up.

That's reexamining your assumption?!!!  You are becoming annoying.

/BAH

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#166666

FromAndrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com>
Date2016-07-05 18:19 +0100
Message-ID<ipCdncwJU4WMcebKnZ2dnUU78VvNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#166597
On 05/07/2016 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
{snip}

>>
>> The advantage over COBOL was that spelling wasn't important :-)
>>
>> The Joy of C of course was that you wrote it pretty much like assembler,
>> but half of the comments were not necessary.
>
> Well, I'd disagree with that.  Reading C is no joy to me.
>
> /BAH
>
Writing system software in COBOL was awkward. Translating DEC-10 
assembler to PDP-11 is difficult and to ARM worse - it can take months. 
Write in C and it is less than a days work.

I accept C is a little too abbreviated and needs a much better array 
handling system.

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#166793

Fromjmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com>
Date2016-07-06 13:11 +0000
Message-ID<PM000536F70A0D51F9@aca416c1.ipt.aol.com>
In reply to#166666
Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 05/07/2016 14:32, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> {snip}
>
>>>
>>> The advantage over COBOL was that spelling wasn't important :-)
>>>
>>> The Joy of C of course was that you wrote it pretty much like assembler,
>>> but half of the comments were not necessary.
>>
>> Well, I'd disagree with that.  Reading C is no joy to me.
>>
>> /BAH
>>
> Writing system software in COBOL was awkward. Translating DEC-10
> assembler to PDP-11 is difficult and to ARM worse - it can take months.
> Write in C and it is less than a days work.
>
> I accept C is a little too abbreviated and needs a much better array
> handling system.

I understand the advantages.  I like readable code so I can
quickly do an overview scan of the program before delving
into its guts.  It's what I was used to.

/BAH

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#166529

FromDennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date2016-07-04 13:01 -0400
Message-ID<r25lnb9mv8ac7vg6tk3e1hvaa90ipsd59v@4ax.com>
In reply to#166487
On 4 Jul 2016 12:42:03 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> declaimed the
following:

>
>I thought Admiral Hopper wrote COBOL.
>

	COmmon Business Oriented Language came out of the CODASYL consortium as
a language that could be used on many computers (vs system specific
assembly). Hopper was just one member of the team -- though the use of
English like language, and device independence were heavily pushed by her.

	If one trusts Wikipedia, she developed FLOW-MATIC -- which, with IBMs
COMTRAN -- were the two main influences on COBOL.
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#166551

Frommausg@mail.com
Date2016-07-04 16:50 +0000
Message-ID<slrnnnl1ea.ci0.mausg@Smaus.org>
In reply to#166487
On 2016-07-04, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 03/07/16 14:33, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>>>>>
>>>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
>>>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
>>>> and data dictionary specifications.
>>>
>>> You need to reexamine that assumption.
>>
>> I don't think I do.
>> Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire, but the general
>> progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst
>
> It depended on the shop.  I was all three including a few others.
> IIRC, the Patriot missle's code was COBOL written in Natick Labs.
>
> COBOL was used when decimal arithmetic was important waybackwhen.
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                              Still is, AFAIK.

> It also had the feature of being self-documenting if the variables
> were chosen well.
>
> /BAH


-- 
greymaus.ireland.ie
 .
  .
...

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#166552

From"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com>
Date2016-07-04 13:27 -0400
Message-ID<MPG.31e4667ad24a9ef598a320@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#166551
In article <slrnnnl1ea.ci0.mausg@Smaus.org>, mausg@mail.com says...
> 
> On 2016-07-04, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> > The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >> On 03/07/16 14:33, jmfbahciv wrote:
> >>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >>>> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
> >>>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
> >>>> and data dictionary specifications.
> >>>
> >>> You need to reexamine that assumption.
> >>
> >> I don't think I do.
> >> Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire, but the general
> >> progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst
> >
> > It depended on the shop.  I was all three including a few others.
> > IIRC, the Patriot missle's code was COBOL written in Natick Labs.
> >
> > COBOL was used when decimal arithmetic was important waybackwhen.
>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>                               Still is, AFAIK.
> 
> > It also had the feature of being self-documenting if the variables
> > were chosen well.

Less than people who don't work with financial software thin.  The 
trouble with decimal is that it slows things down horribly on most 
systems.  The new Zs have decimal in hardware but I have been unable to 
find any documentation on the relative performance and so far haven't 
had time to benchmark it.

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#166564

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2016-07-04 22:39 +0000
Message-ID<nleojo11sc4@news7.newsguy.com>
In reply to#166552
On 2016-07-04, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <slrnnnl1ea.ci0.mausg@Smaus.org>, mausg@mail.com says...
> 
>> On 2016-07-04, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> COBOL was used when decimal arithmetic was important waybackwhen.
>>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>                               Still is, AFAIK.
>> 
>>> It also had the feature of being self-documenting if the variables
>>> were chosen well.
>
> Less than people who don't work with financial software thin.  The 
> trouble with decimal is that it slows things down horribly on most 
> systems.

Converting back and forth between binary and decimal was slow too -
enough so that it was standard practice to use decimal for numeric
data fields and binary for subscripts.  Even though binary arithmetic
was faster, if you were doing a lot of simple calculations you'd lose
the speed advantage several times over if you converted input data
from decimal to binary for calculations and back to decimal for output.

The other problem was even if you were determined to do your calculations
in binary, many machines didn't support long enough binary fields to hold
your numbers.  Most machines did binary arithmetic on fields that were 32
bits long at most; a 32-bit signed binary field, if used to store integer
pennies, could store a maximum amount of $21,474,836.47 - enough only for
small companies, without allowing for guard digits or fractional pennies.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#166517

FromCharlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
Date2016-07-04 16:27 +0000
Message-ID<nle2pg01f2o@news7.newsguy.com>
In reply to#166401
On 2016-07-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 03/07/16 14:33, jmfbahciv wrote:
>
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing
>>> on very large data sets.
>>
>> Was it originally?
>
> I think so.
>
> Batch processing of payroll etc etc.

Anyone who thinks payroll is simple has never done it.

>>> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
>>> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
>>> and data dictionary specifications.
>>
>> You need to reexamine that assumption.
>
> I don't think I do.
> Of course analysts who couldn't program too were dire, but the general 
> progression was coder -> 'ANAL/PROG' -> Systems analyst

The in-house payroll system at a PPOE squeezed job description into
a 15-character field.  My entry read PROGRAMMER-ANAL, which I thought
was quite appropriate.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

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#166411

FromDan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
Date2016-07-03 11:30 -0400
Message-ID<nlbb2p$g08$4@dont-email.me>
In reply to#166389
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>>
>>>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
>>>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast majority
>>>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage to
>>>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was certainly
>>>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of the
>>>> instruction.
>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO
>>>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high
>>>>>> level language. ...
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.
>>>>
>>>>> Sounds fun.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>>
>>>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
>>>>
>>>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>>>>        END
>>>>
>>>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
>>>> assigned goto was optional.)
>>>>
>>>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
>>>> with assigned gotos.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one didn't.  I
>>> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like bad
>>> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.
>>
>> The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often
>> quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written program
>> it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular GO TO
>> was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program also
>> included code from a COPY library.
>>
>> Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that the
>> sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to execute
>> that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run times.
>>
>> As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not use
>> ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of
>> structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.
>>
>>
> And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing
> on very large data sets.
>
> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
> and data dictionary specifications.

In your apparently limited experience.

Everywhere I worked, those were Programmer/Analysts.

Separating the functions leads to dis-function.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#166427

FromAhem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>
Date2016-07-03 17:31 +0100
Message-ID<20160703173143.6fc1a81b515968ac2dd0522c@eircom.net>
In reply to#166411
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 11:30:32 -0400
Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> 
> > A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who
> > does the real work, translating the business problem into code module
> > and data dictionary specifications.

	That was the model I was taught as part of my A level in CS back in
1975, from what I can tell the model was falling apart then.

> In your apparently limited experience.
> 
> Everywhere I worked, those were Programmer/Analysts.

	Yep that's been the norm for most of my career to date - although
there is the occasional outbreak of Architects who produce documents with
minimal information content but maximal words and diagrams.

	What there is in most larger places is a grading from junior dev,
developer, senior dev and in larger places some higher grades (names vary)
with the general expectation that the higher up the chain the more you
focus on design and the hard bits and the more you mentor those lower down
the chain.

> Separating the functions leads to dis-function.

	As does preventing the developers (PROG/ANAL - had to go) from
talking to the users.

-- 
Steve O'Hara-Smith                          |   Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN                                      | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins.                |    licences available see
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    http://www.sohara.org/

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#166419

FromPeter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
Date2016-07-03 11:54 -0400
Message-ID<2080815322.489253187.744454.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>
In reply to#166389
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/07/16 12:33, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 07:11:31 -0400, Peter Flass wrote:
>> 
>>> John Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I REALLY, REALLY miss Execute on x86.
>>>> 
>>>> It was pretty fun on the PDP-10 and 360, but it was more of a band-aid
>>>> for holes in the instruction set.  On the 360 I think the vast majority
>>>> of EX instructions were to get the effect of a MVC or other storage to
>>>> storage instruction with a variable length operand.  That was certainly
>>>> what they had in mind when they made it modify the second byte of the
>>>> instruction.
>>>> 
>>>>>> Agreed, but it got into early COBOL as the ALTER ... TO PROCEED TO
>>>>>> ... statement. IMO its the worst misfeature that ever got into a high
>>>>>> level language. ...
>>>> 
>>>> Oh, I'm sure that if we think hard we can come up with something worse.
>>>> 
>>>>> Sounds fun.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do you mean you could permanently alter a goto statement as it were?
>>>> 
>>>> Yup.  Fortran provided the same bad idea with assigned GOTOs:
>>>> 
>>>> 222   ASSIGN 666 TO HELL 666   GO TO HELL,(666,222)
>>>> END
>>>> 
>>>> (In most flavors of Fortran the list of statement numbers in the
>>>> assigned goto was optional.)
>>>> 
>>>> The original Fortran system didn't have subroutines, so you faked them
>>>> with assigned gotos.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> The FORTRAN GOTO listed the possibilities, AIR, the COBOL one didn't.  I
>>> never used it except in a "structured" way, but it would seem like bad
>>> programmers could have had a lot of fun with it.
>> 
>> The real problem with ALTER was that the ALTER statements were often
>> quite distant from the GO TOs they affected. In a badly written program
>> it could be surprisingly difficult to work out whether a particular GO TO
>> was the target of an ALTER statement, particularly of the program also
>> included code from a COPY library.
>> 
>> Anyway, I think its justification was based on a false premise, that the
>> sort of conditionals an ALTER would replace were so expensive to execute
>> that merely using ALTERs would make a measurable difference to run times.
>> 
>> As you say, the simple approach was to write structured code and not use
>> ALTERs, but remember that when COBOL was introduced, the concept of
>> structured code was scarcely a gleam in the eye of Djikstra or Wirth.
>> 
>> 
> And remember also that COBOL was designed to do very simple processing 
> on very large data sets.
> 
> A COBOL *PROGRAMMER* is the lowest of the low. It is the analyst who 
> does the real work, translating the business problem into code module 
> and data dictionary specifications.
> 

Have you ever done any significant COBOL programming?  It's not my favorite
language, but I've seen (and written) some pretty complex code in it.  IME
most COBOL programmers are  "programmer/analysts"; I've only worked one
place that had a separate analyst group, and there the programmers had to
do double the work to make sense of the cr@p the analysts generated.

-- 
Pete

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