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Re: Annotated version of SRT

From Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Annotated version of SRT
Date 2022-04-08 08:40 +0200
Message-ID <jba3mtFg7iqU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (17 earlier) <t2etbn$h0v$3@gioia.aioe.org> <jb268qF405U1@mid.individual.net> <t2i00b$e25$1@gioia.aioe.org> <jb4ptjFffd0U1@mid.individual.net> <03a03595-b620-438c-939a-b1efadaa0d79n@googlegroups.com>

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Am 07.04.2022 um 10:06 schrieb JanPB:
> On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 11:22:47 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>> Am 05.04.2022 um 19:58 schrieb Michael Moroney:
>>> On 4/5/2022 2:35 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>> Am 04.04.2022 um 15:55 schrieb Odd Bodkin:
>>>>> Thomas Heger <ttt...@web.de> wrote:
>>>>>> Am 03.04.2022 um 21:42 schrieb Michael Moroney:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I understand, that magnetic field and electric field have different
>>>>>>>>>> effects, hence are different things, even if related.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So: I cannot subtract 1 amp from 1 Volt, because that does not make
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> more sense then subtraction weigth from pressure.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You don't subtract 1 A from 1 V.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Electric field strength (commonly called 'E') was subtracted from
>>>>>>>> magnetic field strength (commonly called 'H') by Einstein.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> E has [V/m] as units and H has [A/m].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To subtract E from H would mean [A/m - V/m] =[(A - V)/m].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Einstein used only the X-components called 'N' and 'Y', which should
>>>>>>>> have similar units, nevertheless. The used phrase 'force' instead of
>>>>>>>> 'field strength' was actually wrong.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now ... ..(N - v/c*Y)... contains an illegal operation, because it
>>>>>>>> requires to subtract Volts from Amps. (sorry: I wrote it the other
>>>>>>>> way
>> Here I made a mistake.
>>
>> I regarded the equations on page 13 as equations with vectors, because
>> Einstein defined the symbols 'Y' and 'N' as electric and magnetic force
>> on page 22 as "...an electric force Y and a magnetic force N ".
>>
>> My error was now, that I have used the definition of page 22 and applied
>> that to page 13.
>
> Both pages refer to components of the relevant fields (electric or magnetic).

Sure, but I was talking about components of vectors.

Now a field is something from the real world, while vectors belong to 
the mathematical description of that phenomenon.

A vector is actually a n-tuple, which combines a number of values into 
one piece.

the main features of a vector are: direction and 'length'.
Vectors maintain direction and strength, but can be moved around.

But what entries do vectors have?

We could think about different things, that could be the entries: like 
numbers, scalar physical quantities with a unit or other vectors.

But how shall we interpret the entries of vectors in Einstein's text?

Usually the author should say, how he likes his symbols to be 
understood. But since Einstein did not define his variables, we are 
forced to find out on the own, what could possibly be meant.

This is not easy, because Einstein used usual symbols with unusual meanings.

E.g. the usualy symbol for a Poyting vector is S, while Einstein used it 
for 'volume of a sphere'.

The next stumbling block is the fact, that Einstein used same symbols 
with different meanings.

E.g. the symbol 'A' was used for eight different purposes.

(that is actually so nasty, that this alone would be sufficant to 
dismiss the entire paper.)

To make matters worse, he also defined something, but actually used 
other symbols.

E.g. the axes of the moving system k got intitially the names Xsi, Eta 
and Zeta in tall Greek letters, but actually used were X, Y and Z.

In case of vectors he gave no hints whatever, how he wanted the entries 
to be interpreted.

Therefore we are forced to find that out ourselves.

But Einstein used such entries in an n-tuple also as names for the 
direction components of the physical fields.

E.g. Y was used as x-component in the electric field strength vector at 
point (x, y, z). That 'Y' is therefore a unitless number, because the 
n-tuple (X, Y, Z) 'inherits' its units from the coordinate system it 
belongs to.

But the x-component of the electric field is not a number.


>> This was justified by the common practice, that a definitions remains
>> valid throughout the entire text, which also would operate backwards.
>>
>> But instead of this, Einstein had the EXTREMELY NASTY habit, to reuse
>> or redefine symbols, what would excluse such backwards operations.
>>
>> So: 'N' on page 13 means something else than 'N' on page 22 and only the
>> definition from pages prior to page 13 are valid there.
>
> No, both "N" mean the same thing. Einstein says "electric force Y" when
> he means "the y-component of the electric field". It may have been
> standard usage back then. Its meaning is obvious regardless.
>
>> On page 13 N and Y do not mean vector or vector component, but the
>> actual numbers at a certain position within a vector.
>
> Everywhere in the paper they denote components of the electric or
> magnetic field ((X, Y, Z) and (L, M, N), respectively.
>

No

The vectors build not the field itself, but the numerical destription of 
the field.

The vector is therefore a mathematical object and belongs to a 
mathematical representation of a real physical phenomenon.

Such objects are technically unitless n-tupels. The meaning stems from 
the 'environment', to what this n-tuple belongs.


TH
>

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Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-03 08:07 +0200
  Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-03 00:43 -0700
  Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-03 12:38 +0000
    Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-04 07:14 +0200
      Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 01:44 -0700
        Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-05 08:16 +0200
      Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 13:55 +0000
        Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-05 08:25 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-05 02:46 -0400
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-06 07:40 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 14:56 +0000
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-06 07:53 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-06 13:50 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-06 07:01 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-06 14:18 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-06 08:45 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-07 07:08 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 13:25 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 07:53 +0200
  Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-03 15:42 -0400
    Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-04 07:20 +0200
      Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-04 13:10 +0200
      Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 13:55 +0000
        Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-05 08:35 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-05 10:28 +0200
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 03:15 -0700
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-06 08:01 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 14:56 +0000
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-05 14:03 -0400
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 18:06 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-07 07:48 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 13:25 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 07:59 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mitch Yamaguchi <sdvw@aozrihai.wg> - 2022-04-07 19:23 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT thor stoneman <consequently7990662@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 14:10 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 07:56 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-05 13:58 -0400
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-06 08:22 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-07 07:45 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 01:20 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 08:14 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 23:47 -0700
              Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 01:06 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 08:40 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 23:56 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 20:50 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-08 19:05 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-09 08:08 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-08 23:51 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-09 13:02 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Coke Hishikawa <uhva@blseummh.nm> - 2022-04-09 13:21 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-09 12:18 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-10 09:14 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-04-10 11:29 +0300
                Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-10 12:28 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-04-10 16:54 +0300
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-11 00:50 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-10 21:52 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-11 07:42 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-11 11:01 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2022-04-11 05:50 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-11 18:20 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-11 09:48 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2022-04-11 09:54 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-11 12:32 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-11 18:39 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-11 21:28 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-12 06:36 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-11 21:38 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-12 06:47 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-11 21:58 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-04-12 11:14 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Richard Hachel <r.hachel@tiscali.fr> - 2022-04-12 11:10 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-11 12:38 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-12 18:48 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-12 11:37 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-10 13:06 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-09 07:48 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-09 14:36 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-09 06:18 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-10 08:49 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-09 23:52 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-10 12:54 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-10 12:51 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-10 05:02 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-10 21:04 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-10 22:08 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-10 21:20 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-11 07:48 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2022-04-11 08:43 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-11 13:55 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-11 21:09 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2022-04-12 02:52 +0000
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Coke Hishikawa <uhva@blseummh.nm> - 2022-04-09 11:33 +0000
              Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-09 13:08 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-10 11:54 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-10 21:10 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-11 12:43 -0700
      Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-04 21:02 -0400
  Re: Annotated version of SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-04-03 22:31 +0200
  Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-04 13:10 +0200

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