Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #582017

Re: Annotated version of SRT

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: Annotated version of SRT
Date	2022-04-06 08:22 +0200
Message-ID	<jb4ptjFffd0U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(15 earlier) <t2cta9$va$1@gioia.aioe.org> <javdg2Fe6q1U1@mid.individual.net> <t2etbn$h0v$3@gioia.aioe.org> <jb268qF405U1@mid.individual.net> <t2i00b$e25$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Am 05.04.2022 um 19:58 schrieb Michael Moroney:
> On 4/5/2022 2:35 AM, Thomas Heger wrote:
>> Am 04.04.2022 um 15:55 schrieb Odd Bodkin:
>>> Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 03.04.2022 um 21:42 schrieb Michael Moroney:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I understand, that magnetic field and electric field have different
>>>>>>>> effects, hence are different things, even if related.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So: I cannot subtract 1 amp from 1 Volt, because that does not make
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> more sense then subtraction weigth from pressure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You don't subtract 1 A from 1 V.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Electric field strength (commonly called 'E') was subtracted from
>>>>>> magnetic field strength (commonly called 'H') by Einstein.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E has [V/m] as units and H has [A/m].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subtract E from H would mean [A/m - V/m] =[(A - V)/m].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Einstein used only the X-components called 'N' and 'Y', which should
>>>>>> have similar units, nevertheless. The used phrase 'force' instead of
>>>>>> 'field strength' was actually wrong.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now ... ..(N - v/c*Y)... contains an illegal operation, because it
>>>>>> requires to subtract Volts from Amps. (sorry: I wrote it the other
>>>>>> way


Here I made a mistake.

I regarded the equations on page 13 as equations with vectors, because 
Einstein defined the symbols 'Y' and 'N' as electric and magnetic force 
on page 22 as "...an electric force Y and a magnetic force N ".

My error was now, that I have used the definition of page 22 and applied 
that to page 13.

This was justified by the common practice, that a definitions remains 
valid throughout the entire text, which also would operate backwards.

But instead of this, Einstein had the EXTREMELY  NASTY habit, to reuse 
or redefine symbols, what would excluse such backwards operations.

So: 'N' on page 13 means something else than 'N' on page 22 and only the 
definition from pages prior to page 13 are valid there.

On page 13 N and Y do not mean vector or vector component, but the 
actual numbers at a certain position within a vector.


It was blatantly stupid, anyhow, to use such number from vectors 
belonging to different coordinate systems in a single term.

The equations on page 13 are partial differential eqautions, which are 
based on two different coordinate system, which are in relative motion.

To mix them into one term would require to add numbers, which do not 
belong together, but to two different systems.


>>>>>> I have complained about this operation and you are still not able to
>>>>>> justify that by other means then by referencing to the same units
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> in the cgs system.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Gaussian/CGS system uses different definitions for electric and
>>>>> magnetic fields.  Both are defined as force per unit charge.
>>>>>
>>>>> The magnetic field also needs a speed/velocity component, but CGS
>>>>> uses a
>>>>> _ratio_ of v/c which is unitless.  Since both the magnetic and
>>>>> electric
>>>>> fields have the same units, they can be added or subtracted from each
>>>>> other.
>>>>
>>>> I'm totally speachless!
>>>>
>>>> No!!!
>>>>
>>>> In physics you cannot randomly add or subtract numbers, just because
>>>> they have no or the same units!
>>>
>>> Well, actually, if two numbers have no units, yes, absolutely you can
>>> add
>>> or subtract them. As in, 1-v/c.
>>
>> You can add the number of people on the internation space station to
>> the number of holes in your socks, if you like to do that.
>>
>> But the question is, whether such an opreation makes sense.
>
> Different units! Humans per space station vs. holes per sock.  :-)
>>
>> In theoretical physics you are simply not allowed to add random
>> numbers, just because the units match.
>>
>>>>
>>>> In physics you have always real physical systems, which need to
>>>> correspond to the numbers in some way.
>>>
>>> Yes, and there are different systems of units, which you don’t seem
>>> to be
>>> familiar with.
>>
>>
>> What had this to do with the question, whether or not electric field
>> strength might be subtracted from magnetic field strength?
>>
>> It where not the units, which caused my concerns, but the physical
>> meaning of that operation.
>>
>> So: what is actually the difference of a magnetic field of -say- 300
>> Gauss and an electric field of say 100 V/m?
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Here we have electric and magnetic field strength, which the cgs-system
>>>> unfortunately measures with the same units.
>>>>
>>>> But to add or subtract these values would require, to add or subtract
>>>> those fields, what you cannot do (at least should not do).
>>>
>>> Depends on the system of units.
>>>
>>
>> In the cgs system 'dyne' were used. And now N should be 100 dynes and
>> v/c*Y should be 90 dynes.
>>
>> the result is 10 dynes.
>>
>> But is this an electric field or a magnetic field or both combined?
>
> There really is a single electromagnetic field, which manifests itself
> as electric and magnetic fields depending on the SR frame referenced.
>
> Electric and magnetic fields have units of dynes/ESU (or
> dynes/statcoulomb or dynes/franklin if you prefer). A force due to
> gravity cannot be added to that (dynes/gram)  If there is a fixed charge
> on an object, the dynes/ESU will produce a force in dynes, and if the
> mass is known the force due to gravity can be added to the
> electromagnetic force. (dynes+dynes)

Sure, that is all fine...

But why not dynes/psi, dynes/m or dynes/°celsius?


TH

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Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-01 07:37 +0200
  Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-01 00:39 -0700
    Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-02 08:38 +0200
    Re: Annotated version of SRT Richie Cruze <rcru@bstntap.jp> - 2022-04-02 18:17 +0000
      Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-02 14:57 -0400
        Re: Annotated version of SRT Richie Cruze <rcru@bstntap.jp> - 2022-04-02 19:07 +0000
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-02 15:22 -0400
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Richie Cruze <rcru@bstntap.jp> - 2022-04-02 19:33 +0000
          Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-02 12:30 -0700
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Richie Cruze <rcru@bstntap.jp> - 2022-04-02 19:53 +0000
              Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-03 00:38 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Elmer Joss <josl@nntdca.mx> - 2022-04-03 08:50 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-03 13:07 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Vance Rera <rerv@trscnat.ag> - 2022-04-03 20:24 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-03 15:34 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Vance Rera <rerv@trscnat.ag> - 2022-04-04 00:25 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-03 19:33 -0700
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test Hagan Koon <koh@nisnaha.mx> - 2022-04-04 12:30 +0000
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 12:23 -0700
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test Lamar Main <lana@rtcpans.in> - 2022-04-04 21:04 +0000
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test Paul Alsing <pnalsing@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 17:41 -0700
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-04 21:09 -0400
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test whodat <whodaat@void.nowgre.com> - 2022-04-05 00:17 -0500
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 23:03 -0700
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-05 02:10 -0400
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test Lamar Main <lana@rtcpans.in> - 2022-04-05 09:35 +0000
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 03:13 -0700
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test Lamar Main <lana@rtcpans.in> - 2022-04-05 09:33 +0000
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 16:00 -0700
                Re: Annotated nazi excrement JanPB failed the eugenicist IQ-test Lamar Main <lana@rtcpans.in> - 2022-04-05 09:54 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-05 08:09 +0200
    Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-03 08:07 +0200
      Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-03 00:43 -0700
      Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-03 12:38 +0000
        Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-04 07:14 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 01:44 -0700
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-05 08:16 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 13:55 +0000
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-05 08:25 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-05 02:46 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-06 07:40 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 14:56 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-06 07:53 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-06 13:50 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-06 07:01 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-06 14:18 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-06 08:45 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-07 07:08 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 13:25 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 07:53 +0200
      Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-03 15:42 -0400
        Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-04 07:20 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-04 13:10 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-04 13:55 +0000
            Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-05 08:35 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-05 10:28 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 03:15 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-06 08:01 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 14:56 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-05 14:03 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-05 18:06 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-07 07:48 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 13:25 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 07:59 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mitch Yamaguchi <sdvw@aozrihai.wg> - 2022-04-07 19:23 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT thor stoneman <consequently7990662@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 14:10 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 07:56 +0200
              Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-05 13:58 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-06 08:22 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-07 07:45 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 01:20 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 08:14 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 23:47 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 01:06 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 08:40 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-07 23:56 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-08 20:50 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-08 19:05 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-09 08:08 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-08 23:51 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2022-04-09 13:02 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Coke Hishikawa <uhva@blseummh.nm> - 2022-04-09 13:21 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-09 12:18 -0400
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-10 09:14 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-04-10 11:29 +0300
                Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-10 12:28 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-04-10 16:54 +0300
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-10 13:06 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-09 07:48 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-09 14:36 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-09 06:18 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-10 08:49 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-09 23:52 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-10 12:54 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-10 12:51 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> - 2022-04-10 05:02 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-10 21:04 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-04-10 22:08 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Coke Hishikawa <uhva@blseummh.nm> - 2022-04-09 11:33 +0000
                Re: Annotated version of SRT JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2022-04-09 13:08 -0700
                Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-10 11:54 +0200
                Re: Annotated version of SRT Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2022-04-10 21:10 +0200
          Re: Annotated version of SRT Michael Moroney <moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com> - 2022-04-04 21:02 -0400
      Re: Annotated version of SRT "Paul B. Andersen" <paul.b.andersen@paulba.no> - 2022-04-03 22:31 +0200
      Re: Annotated version of SRT nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2022-04-04 13:10 +0200

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