Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor
Date	2013-04-24 15:05 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kl9a8o$slj$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<cdb881d8-8f57-47d7-9050-70684757e98c@googlegroups.com> <kl8uq5$opq$1@dont-email.me> <51782454$0$6362$e4fe514c@dreader35.news.xs4all.nl>

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On 4/24/2013 2:28 PM, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article<kl8uq5$opq$1@dont-email.me>, rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 4/24/2013 7:50 AM, Leon (leon@koningssoftware.com) wrote:
>>> I am happy to say, I went public with the GA144 Simulator, I wrote in Factor.
>>>
>>> As you all know the GA144 is a chip containing 144 small computers.
>>> Invented by Chuck Moore and produced by Greenarrays, Inc. See:
>>> http://www.greenarraychips.com/
>>>
>>> It is a rather big project with the name arrayFactor. The repository
>>> is at Bitbucket. You can reach it via http://arrayfactor.org
>>
>> I have looked at the GA simulator.  One of the limitations is that it
>> doesn't handling timing in a very useful way.  They make some *very*
>> gross estimations of instruction timing and let it go.  I found that I
>> couldn't expect it to be very useful for a multiprocessor device dealing
>> with real time issues.
>>
>> How does your simulator deal with timing information?
>
> You bet that if you want to add it, it will be easier than in colorforth.
> More important, should you add it to arrayforth, your efforts are gone
> with the next release of the arrayforth environment.

Timing is something that has to be built in from scratch.  It would be 
hard to add later.  The way FPGA simulators handle it would be useful. 
They create a queue of events.  Every event results in other events 
being scheduled and placed in the queue according to the associated 
delay.  A simulator based on fixed delays or unit delays likely would 
need to be started over depending on the structure.

> Apparently there is extensive timing in OKAD, so GA has little
> incentive to add it into the similator.

OKAD is for designing chips.  The simulator is for testing software. 
The timing info from OKAD, or better, the actual chip characterization, 
would be used to set up the simulation timing, but the two are not 
functionally interchangable.

GA doesn't worry about the simulator doing accurate timing because they 
feel you should do your work on a chip and just measure things.  I find 
that humorous really.  On one hand they say it is too much work to fully 
characterize some of the timing I asked for, but on the other hand they 
expect users to do the same thing for every timing critical program they 
write.

The interactive testing philosophy of Forth is great for finding logical 
bugs and such.  I think evaluating timing this way is absurd and 
actually impossible to do for internal nodes that you can't observe.

I've had to design FPGAs with tools that were broken and would fail to 
flag timing problems.  Testing timing on real chips by varying 
temperature, process and voltage is a *HUGE* pita.  BTW, you *can't* 
really vary process yourself, can you?  The best you can do is to find a 
handful of chips that seem to represent a cross section of what is 
likely to be produced, then pray.  With only two fab lots out so far, I 
expect they don't know the range of process yet.

When I had this conversation with GA was when I stopped looking at the 
chips for timing critical real time apps.

-- 

Rick

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Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor "Leon (leon@koningssoftware.com)" <lkonings56@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 04:50 -0700
  Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Luca Saiu <positron@gnu.org> - 2013-04-24 14:06 +0200
    Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Steve <nospam275@gmail.com> - 2013-04-29 19:12 -0700
  Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-04-24 08:03 -0700
    Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-24 08:32 -0700
    Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-24 08:34 -0700
      Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 11:52 -0400
        Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-24 09:02 -0700
          Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor lkonings56@gmail.com - 2013-04-24 09:29 -0700
            Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 14:22 -0400
            Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-04-24 22:56 +0200
              Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-24 14:39 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-24 19:49 -0700
              Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-24 16:43 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-04-25 01:47 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-25 03:52 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-04-25 03:22 -0700
              Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 17:58 -0400
              Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-25 00:36 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor lkonings56@gmail.com - 2013-04-25 02:14 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-04-25 05:54 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-25 13:32 +0000
              Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-04-25 09:20 +0000
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-25 09:56 +0000
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-25 11:48 +0000
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-25 09:02 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor lkonings56@gmail.com - 2013-04-25 09:40 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-25 07:04 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-25 16:16 +0000
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-26 00:11 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-26 08:52 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-04-26 17:16 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor mhx@iae.nl - 2013-04-26 12:46 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-04-27 01:04 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-04-25 20:58 +0100
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor lkonings56@gmail.com - 2013-04-25 23:36 -0700
          Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-24 16:50 +0000
          Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 14:13 -0400
            Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-24 14:56 -0700
              Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 18:12 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-24 15:43 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 18:49 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 16:09 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-24 20:23 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-25 15:41 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-25 03:23 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-25 02:36 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-25 07:01 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-25 17:56 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-25 11:56 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-26 16:04 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-26 13:02 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-26 21:34 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-26 15:56 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-27 00:48 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-26 18:21 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-28 02:22 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-28 03:31 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-28 06:30 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-28 06:21 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-28 15:41 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-04-28 16:35 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-29 02:37 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Roelf Toxopeus <rt4all@notthis.hetnet.nl> - 2013-04-29 10:07 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-29 21:12 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-29 06:26 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-29 21:07 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-29 22:01 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-29 16:51 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-29 23:57 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-29 17:24 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-30 02:16 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-30 03:19 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-29 18:40 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-29 20:01 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-30 02:40 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 08:58 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-01 09:57 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 04:24 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-01 07:58 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 04:29 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-02 02:49 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-01 08:54 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-01 23:59 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Ron Aaron <rambamist@gmail.com> - 2013-04-30 06:05 +0300
                The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-01 17:01 +0000
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-05-01 19:20 +0000
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-02 17:02 +0000
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-02 02:12 +0200
                Re: The current object Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-02 04:52 -0400
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-02 04:31 -0500
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-02 18:25 +0200
                Re: The current object anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-02 16:58 +0000
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-02 22:26 +0200
                Re: The current object anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-06 14:52 +0000
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-02 12:12 -0500
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-02 21:56 +0200
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-03 03:19 -0500
                Re: The current object Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-03 06:54 -0400
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-02 14:28 +0000
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-02 19:58 +0200
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-03 16:50 +0000
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-04 18:58 +0200
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-04 13:35 -0500
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-05 01:08 +0200
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-04 18:29 -0500
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-05 03:00 +0200
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-05 03:48 -0500
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-05 23:15 +0200
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-06 05:01 -0500
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-07 03:23 +0200
                Re: The current object Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 06:39 -0400
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-05 09:15 -0500
                Re: The current object Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-05 09:25 -0700
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-05 11:43 -0500
                Re: The current object Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-05-05 09:59 -0700
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-06 05:06 -0500
                Re: The current object Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-05-06 00:19 -0700
                Re: The current object Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 06:39 -0400
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-05 23:40 +0200
                Re: The current object Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-05-05 06:39 -0400
                Re: The current object Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-05-05 23:29 +0200
                Re: The current object Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-05-06 05:10 -0500
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-05-06 16:12 +0000
                Re: The current object (was: Went open source with my GA144 ...) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-05-06 10:25 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-27 00:42 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-27 09:09 +0000
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-04-27 02:28 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-27 04:52 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-28 02:24 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-27 06:18 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-27 08:06 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-28 07:01 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-28 13:09 +0000
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-04-28 09:33 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-28 08:34 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-04-28 08:37 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-30 18:30 +0200
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-25 15:47 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-25 13:39 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-25 13:51 -0700
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-25 16:43 -0500
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-26 13:44 -0400
                Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-26 13:11 -0500
  Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 11:50 -0400
    Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-04-24 18:28 +0000
      Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 15:05 -0400
  Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-04-24 09:39 -0700
  Re: Went open source with my GA144 simulator written in Factor rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-24 18:55 -0400

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