Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!)

From	"Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!)
Date	2013-03-22 03:52 -0400
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<kih2fv$7v2$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <5148759d.489569357@news.demon.co.uk> <kic08e$v5o$1@speranza.aioe.org> <-aqdnSSujs6nF9TMnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@supernews.com> <kiel2n$586$1@speranza.aioe.org> <puudnfemKu_ZZtfMnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d@supernews.com>

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"Andrew Haley" <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote in message
news:puudnfemKu_ZZtfMnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d@supernews.com...
> Rod Pemberton <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> wrote:

> > [snip]
> The classic paper about the C machine is called "The Hardware
> Architecture of the CRISP Microprocessor" by David R. Ditzel
> Hubert R. McLellan.  It is, as far as I'm aware, the only
> machine designed from the ground up expressly to run C.
>

The Wikipedia HOBBIT page really wasn't that informative.  I'll
try to find that article online.  If it's a good working model,
someone, sometime, might be interested in using it in a C compiler
or interpreter.  Or, maybe, it'll just offer some additional
insights into C, but I think I'm about at the end of that road.
Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't refreshed myself on C in a long time.

Quite a few limitations and portability issues with C were
documented by C's creators (Kernighan, Ritchie, Johnson, Thompson)
in their papers.  They ported B and C across a number of different
platforms, learned about the limitations first hand, and adapted
the language to fit.  Their papers are now available for free
online.  Other issues are documented by Harbison and Steel in
their book for various architecture specific implementations of
C.

> > To me, C is a good fit to microprocessors since mid 1970's.
>
> Not really.  C has some nasty mismatches between language and
> CPU hardware.
...

> One of the most glaringly obvious ones is that only one
> argument is returned from a function, [...]

Returning one argument in a register is a "mismatch" between the
language and the CPU?  That seems to be a good fit for 8-bit
micro's and everything that came afterwards.  They have registers.
The "cost" of returning a value is one register.  The "cost" of
returning something on the stack is slightly more expensive
codewise, i.e., more code in the prologue and epilogue.

> [...] so you end up having to pack a
> bunch of arguments into a struct or taking addresses of
> arguments.  So you end up with things like this:
>
>       int getsockname(int sockfd, struct sockaddr *addr,
> socklen_t *addrlen);
>
> which has two return values: one of them is the return value,
> usually in a register, and the other one is placed in memory
> at addrlen.

Personally, I really think this is a coding style issue.  When C
is coded correctly, only rarely do you need to pass back a changed
or updated parameter.  Call-by-value works well a high percentage
of the time, but not always.  When you do, you can use the
call-by-reference method in C, e.g., for structs or unions or
arrays, i.e., compound data types.  Generally, you shouldn't need
to pass back updated non-compound data types.  The need to do so
really implies the data type should be a global variable, or have
file scope.  Of course, there is a C philosophy that avoids the
use of file scope variables.  Personally, I've never desired to
return a struct or union or array as the procedure's return
argument since call-by-reference is available in C.

But, I do agree that call-by-value is one of C's glaring mistakes.
A PL/1 variant I programmed in used call-by-reference by default.
All the address and pointer junk in the parameter list is
eliminated.  The syntax is nice and clean.  I only needed to force
a call-by-value for PL/1 for one rare situation.

Technically, that example only has one return value for a
few reasons:

1) C can only return one value - the actual return argument which
corresponds to return() or exit() or the implicit return().

2) The "one placed in memory at addrlen" is not returned even
though it has been modified - with call-by-reference, it's the
pointer that is returned whether modified or not.  Most
programmers don't modify the pointer to the struct, e.g., setting
or initializing it, even though they can do so.  They want to
modify the struct's content, after it's been allocated.  To be
returned via that method, the contents must be copied to the
procedure's parameter stack (or activation recored etc. if no
stack), modified by the procedure, then copied back.  That only
occurs for the pointer to the struct, not the struct's contents.

3) It appears that the pointers in the parameter list for
getsockname() are not returned as call-by-reference as you desired
to have your example do. They're passed in as call-by-value but
some use a pointer type.  There would need to be another level of
indirection, i.e., pointer-to-pointer-to-struct instead of
pointer-to-struct, e.g., "struct sockaddr **addr", in order to
return a changed pointer via call-by-reference in C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call-by-value#Call_by_value

> There is absolutely no reason for doing this except
> that the language doesn't give you any other way.

True ...  But, I don't understand how the "language doesn't give
you any other way" is a mismatch between the "language and CPU
hardware".  What the language gives you matches the hardware
capabilities, or, at least it did for the 8-bit era.  Modern
microprocessors can do much more today.

> > [snip, didn't feel like reformatting it ...]
> > [basic description of functionality needed to implement C]
>
> Well, yes, but so what?
>

I was just pointing out that C is not really that much more
complicated than Forth, even if it appears that way.  C can be
constructed from a small set of functionality just like eForth, if
one desires to do so...  Although, that's generally not done
anymore for C.  Most modern C compilers are not simple tools
anymore.

Rod Pemberton

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Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 08:52 -0700
  Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-17 10:41 -0700
    Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 11:08 -0700
      Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 08:52 -1000
        Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 12:28 -0700
          Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-17 13:09 -0700
            Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 13:25 -0700
              Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-17 13:53 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-17 23:31 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-18 02:13 -0700
              Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations  (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 16:45 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations  (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-03-28 18:58 -0400
            Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-17 23:27 +0000
              Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-18 02:14 -0700
          Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-18 00:22 +0200
            Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Sieur de Bienville <morrimichael@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 12:27 -0700
          Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-17 16:19 -1000
            Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 00:45 -0700
              Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 10:34 -1000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 13:49 -0700
  Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-17 13:39 -0700
    Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 14:42 -0700
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-17 14:49 -0700
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2013-03-18 11:02 +0100
  Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-03-17 15:11 -0700
  Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-17 21:40 -0400
    Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-18 04:26 -0500
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-18 15:46 +0100
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-19 04:15 -0400
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-19 05:03 -0500
        Re: INTERLUDE SUMMARY  --- Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 04:07 -0700
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 20:56 +0200
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 21:03 +0000
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-20 05:53 -0400
  Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 01:07 -0700
    Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-18 01:53 -0700
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 02:32 -0700
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-18 02:45 -0700
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 03:28 -0700
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-18 10:20 -0700
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-18 18:23 +0000
  Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 10:19 -0700
    Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-18 10:44 -1000
      And what about locals? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-03-18 23:28 +0000
        Re: And what about locals? mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-03-19 01:20 +0200
        Re: And what about locals? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-18 17:17 -1000
          Re: And what about locals? m.a.m.hendrix@tue.nl - 2013-03-19 00:42 -0700
            Re: And what about locals? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 10:06 +0000
            Re: And what about locals? Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-19 12:53 -0700
          Re: And what about locals? Zbiggy <zbigniew2011REMOVE@gmail.REMOVE.com> - 2013-03-19 09:46 +0000
          Re: And what about locals? stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 11:52 +0000
        Re: And what about locals? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 16:08 +0000
          Re: And what about locals? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 22:40 +0100
            Re: And what about locals? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 11:43 +0000
              Re: And what about locals? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 19:05 +0100
                Re: And what about locals? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-04-06 12:00 +0000
                Re: And what about locals? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-08 18:38 +0200
    Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 14:24 -0700
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-18 11:59 -1000
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 15:42 -0400
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 15:04 -0700
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-18 15:22 -0700
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-19 04:07 -0400
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-19 12:49 +0000
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-20 05:33 -0400
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-20 19:52 +0000
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-21 05:53 -0400
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 10:30 -0400
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-04-08 09:32 -0700
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-08 19:54 +0200
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 14:27 +0000
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 08:02 -0700
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-19 08:07 -1000
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 20:50 +0000
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-20 05:47 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-20 10:28 +0000
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 09:34 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-20 18:41 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 00:07 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 00:16 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-21 00:42 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-20 21:55 -1000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-21 16:22 +0100
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 10:59 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 16:05 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 04:42 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-21 10:54 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-21 16:37 +0100
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Brad Eckert <hwfwguy@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 08:34 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 10:44 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 21:00 +0100
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-22 21:04 +0100
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 16:34 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-06 04:05 +0200
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-06 17:11 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-08 19:47 +0200
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-22 18:10 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 10:44 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-05 22:12 +0200
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-06 02:46 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-08 17:53 +0200
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-19 20:30 +0100
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-03-19 21:05 +0000
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-20 01:58 +0100
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 16:39 -0400
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-06 04:07 +0200
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-20 05:43 -0400
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 05:06 -0500
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 10:45 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 11:08 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 17:40 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-20 13:25 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, r kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-03-21 05:42 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-21 18:14 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 15:05 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 15:48 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-30 12:00 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-31 12:36 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-01 04:41 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-01 14:12 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-21 18:46 +0000
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-21 05:51 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-21 04:04 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-22 03:15 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-22 00:16 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-22 04:11 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 07:21 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-21 17:45 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-21 15:13 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:38 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-27 13:23 -0500
                Language for implementing other languages (was: Algorithm design ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 11:08 +0000
                Re: Language for implementing other languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-30 08:50 -0700
                Re: Language for implementing other languages anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-31 13:15 +0000
                Re: Language for implementing other languages Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-31 08:03 -0700
                Re: Language for implementing other languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-30 11:08 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-22 03:52 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-22 04:15 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-24 15:03 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-03-24 14:36 -1000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-25 05:05 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-03-25 12:02 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-25 07:26 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-03-25 08:25 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-29 18:09 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-30 04:52 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-30 10:36 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-30 10:58 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-30 09:40 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-29 18:13 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-29 18:12 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-27 17:25 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-27 22:19 +0100
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-28 11:19 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-28 07:19 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-28 17:58 +0100
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-28 16:22 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-29 02:06 +0100
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-29 04:23 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-28 15:41 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-03-28 18:00 +0100
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-28 16:26 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-29 14:11 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-29 14:53 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-29 08:49 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-29 16:54 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-30 13:06 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-31 11:36 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-01 02:18 +0200
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-03-31 19:33 -0700
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-01 16:18 +0200
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-01 11:17 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-04-02 04:30 +0200
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-01 15:54 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, ro kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2013-04-01 14:54 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-03-30 13:08 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-02 16:00 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-02 16:47 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design: computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-03 11:27 +0000
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnotq.cpm> - 2013-03-23 01:57 -0400
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 16:45 -0400
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-04-06 03:00 -0500
                Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-04-08 16:11 +0000
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-20 10:23 +0000
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 15:13 -0400
      Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 15:27 -0400
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-05 15:02 -0700
        Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-05 13:22 -1000
          Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-06 12:34 -1000
            Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) AKE <assadebrahim2000@gmail.com> - 2013-04-07 02:39 -0700
              Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-04-07 09:11 -1000
  Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations  (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-03-19 17:38 +0000
  Re: Algorithm design:  computational cost of ordinary stack operations (dup, rot, over, swap, etc.) vs. cost of fetch (@) and store (!) Michael L Gassanenko <m_l_g3@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-21 04:53 -0700

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