Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #479325

Re: the famous formula

From	Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: the famous formula
Date	2018-12-08 13:43 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<pughq5$118f$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <g6tcrdFugh7U1@mid.individual.net> <38b03482-19b8-f0e3-1c69-5d00ece928fb@PointedEars.de> <g6v2h6Fb0lhU1@mid.individual.net> <22bed404-b9e0-9995-d1bf-aa333a5dd7df@PointedEars.de> <g71uloFubu2U1@mid.individual.net>

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Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> wrote:
> Am 07.12.2018 um 16:15 schrieb Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
>> Thomas Heger wrote:
>>> Am 06.12.2018 um 22:47 schrieb Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
>>>> Then energy/work is
>>>> 
>>>> E = W = F s = m a s = m v/t s = m s/t² s = m s²/t² = m (s/t)² = m v².
>>>> 
>>>> The far right-hand side should ring a bell if you think of kinetic
>>>> energy, the energy of motion: T = E_kin = 1/2 m v² (Newtonian).
>>>> 
>>>> c is the *speed* of light, so E₍₀₎ = m c² makes sense dimensionally.]
>>> 
>>> Energy and work are not the same thing.
>> 
>> Dimensionally they are exactly the same because of how energy is defined
>> (AISB in the part that you did not quote).
>> 
>>> Energy is a scalar unit,
>> 
>> Energy is a _quantity_, not a unit.
> 
> Well, yes. English is a foreign language for me and occasionally I make 
> mistakes.
> 
>> 
>>> hence cannot become negative
>> 
>> But it can.
> 
> There is a difference between mathematics and the real world.
> 
> If we want to regard physics as science, we must always prefer the 'real 
> world perspective' (over the mathematical).
> 
> So a quantity in nature is called 'energy' and this cannot become 
> negative (by definition of the term 'energy').
> 
>> 
>>> and has no direction.
>> 
>> A matter of interpretation.  There are processes that transport energy in a
>> particular direction.
> 
> The '*direction of transport' seems to correspond to 'arrow of time'.
> 
> So a positive direction of time should always be regarded as positive, 
> hence the path determines the direction, where signs are positive.
> 
> 
> Since you cannot create (or transport) something, that absorbs energy 
> without a trace, you must regard the path of
> something as positive and its energetic features also as positive.
>> 
>>> Work is a vectorial unit
>> 
>> Nonsense.
>> 
>>> and has a direction and can eventually become negative
>> 
>> No, that the value of work can become negative is indicative instead of work
>> performed *on* a system as compared to work performed *by* a system.
>> 
>> This is only a *convention*.
>> 
>> For example, if you push a piston to reduce the volume of the gas in a
>> cylinder, then you perform work *on* that system, and the convention is
>> that then this work has a positive sign.
>> 
>> If instead the piston is pushed outwards, increasing the volume of the gas
>> in a cylinder, then work is performed *by* the system on the environment,
>> and it follows that this work must have a negative sign.
> 
> You address the problem of pulling a piston out and creating a lower 
> pressure.
> 
> But this is - of course - also positive work.
> 
> If the piston pushes outwards against some kind of resistance, then we 
> have also positive work, done by that piston.
> 
> Work is therefor positive, if seen from one side and negative, if seen 
> from the other.
> 
> This is why work should be a vector, while energy is not.
> 
> ..
> 
> TH
> 

You make a couple of mistakes.

First of all, energy is not positive-definite. I don’t know why you think
it is.

Secondly, a scalar can have either a positive or negative sign. Being
signed doesn’t make it a vector. 

-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

Thread

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        Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-07 16:15 +0100
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                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-12 16:32 +0100
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                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-15 22:02 +0100
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                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-13 23:14 +0100
                [OT] Work (was: the famous formula) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-11 21:56 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-08 20:14 +0100
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                Re: [OT] Work Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:08 +0100
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                Re: [OT] Work Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 18:58 +0100
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                Re: [OT] Work Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-11 16:36 +0100
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