Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #479610

Re: the famous formula

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: the famous formula
Date	2018-12-11 16:31 +0100
Message-ID	<g7a3hoFoc5dU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <puh2dj$ei8$1@dont-email.me> <g755jaFlh6sU1@mid.individual.net> <puk4et$1kui$3@gioia.aioe.org> <g77moqF8191U1@mid.individual.net> <pummhj$vf2$2@gioia.aioe.org>

Show all headers | View raw

Am 10.12.2018 um 22:41 schrieb Odd Bodkin:
> Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> wrote:
>> Am 09.12.2018 um 23:20 schrieb Odd Bodkin:
>>> Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> wrote:
>>>> Am 08.12.2018 um 19:26 schrieb Libor Striz:
>>>>> Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> Wrote in message:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vectors have a direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Joule for instance or a kilo-Watt-hour has no direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you then say work is a vector ?
>>>>> The unit of work  is 1 Joule.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have a similar problem with 'speed' and 'velocity'.
>>>>
>>>> Both have units like m/s , but one is a vector quantity (velocity) and
>>>> one is not (speed).
>>>>
>>>> Speed is the magnitude of velocity.
>>>>
>>>> https://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-vector-scalar-quantity-physics.html
>>>>
>>>>> The acting force has direction.
>>>>> The path along which the force is acting has direction as well
>>>>> But the work as integral of scalar product of these 2 vectors is a
>>>>> scalar, without direction.
>>>>
>>>> work is NOT 'forth times path'
>>>>
>>>> but ' force times distance'.
>>>
>>> No, it is not that either. It is the integral of the scalar product between
>>> two vectors, the force and the differential displacement.
>>
>>
>> 'Work' is the name of a quantity in physics.
> 
> As is velocity.
> 
>>
>> It relates to the real world, hence is not a product of either one or
>> two vectors.
> 
> I disagree. There are LOTS of real world quantities that are related in
> some way to other real world quantities. Velocity (a vector) is related to
> differential displacement and differential time. Momentum is related to
> mass and velocity.

This is correct. But I had something against this statement:

".. It is the integral of the scalar product between two vectors..."

I said: no, it is not, since a vector is a mathematical construct.

A number is also a mathematical construct. And you cannot multiply two 
brainchilds and hope to get something real.

First statement: a quantity in physics (work) is defined as being the 
product of one quantity (force)and some sort of length.

We could take the integral of tiny displacements and regard this as 
vector (for instance).

This would be ok.

But mainly the vector is a representation of something real, not real 
itself.

I wanted to address the question, wether the second component of this 
product is a vector or a scalar.

A vector (vectorial quantity) has a direction and a value, while a 
scalar has no direction and only a value.

In my opinion work is a quantity, which essential has a direction.

This is so because it is a product of force (which has a direction) and 
something with length (distance or path).

I suggested to take distance and not path, because then work become a 
vectorial quantity and energy the associated scalar.

This would have benefits, since it is more like our understanding of the 
terms.

As example I take this:

you lift a heavy box by 1m.

This is work (done by you) and the work applied had a direction (up) and 
an amount (in Nm - depending on the weight).

If work is a scalar, then the information of direction is discarded for 
no obvious real.

But more serious is the interpretation of work as form of energy. This 
would then create work as 'kind of invisible stuff'.

And this would raise some illogic questions, like: where did the work go?

Sure: it went into the box.

But that is not true, since the work is not done by the box, but by the 
person that lifted it.

To make the box contain that work, work had to become kind of 'stuff'.

TH

Thread

the famous formula RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-06 10:49 -0800
  Re: the famous formula pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-12-06 11:30 -0800
  Re: the famous formula dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-12-06 11:43 -0800
    Re: the famous formula RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-07 10:15 -0800
      Re: the famous formula dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-12-07 11:13 -0800
        Re: the famous formula RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-09 00:02 -0800
          Re: the famous formula dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-12-09 15:23 -0800
            Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik@privacy.net> - 2018-12-10 09:54 +0100
              Re: the famous formula dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-12-10 05:43 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-12-12 11:08 -0600
                Re: the famous formula dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-12-12 09:35 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Rich Carpenter <lcug@kigcohc.pa> - 2018-12-12 19:20 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-12-12 19:28 -0600
                Re: the famous formula Scott Richman <sunn@idhnonow.iv> - 2018-12-13 16:13 +0000
                Re: the famous formula "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-12-14 04:56 -0800
                Re: the famous formula "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-12-14 05:23 -0800
                Re: the famous formula RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-19 13:06 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-12-19 20:32 -0600
                Re: the famous formula RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-27 13:40 -0800
        Re: the famous formula Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-12-12 10:28 -0600
          Re: the famous formula dlzc <dlzc1@cox.net> - 2018-12-12 09:12 -0800
            Re: the famous formula Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-12-14 12:21 -0600
    Re: the famous formula "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-06 09:20 -0800
      Re: the famous formula "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-06 09:37 -0800
  Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-06 20:50 +0100
    Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-06 22:47 +0100
      Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-07 12:06 +0100
        Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-07 16:15 +0100
          Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 14:18 +0100
            Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 13:43 +0000
              Re: the famous formula "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-12-08 06:01 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 18:18 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-08 19:26 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:35 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-09 20:24 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-10 18:48 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Rich Carpenter <lcug@kigcohc.pa> - 2018-12-10 19:37 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-10 22:27 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-10 22:35 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-12 16:45 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-13 17:21 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:03 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-09 20:37 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 22:20 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-10 18:40 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-10 21:59 +0100
                Re: the famous formula "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-18 05:33 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-22 14:51 +0100
                Re: the famous formula "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-22 15:30 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-23 01:34 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 21:41 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-11 16:31 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-11 18:24 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-12 16:32 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 16:27 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-14 15:13 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-14 14:28 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-15 13:35 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-15 13:52 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-15 19:50 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-15 20:33 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-17 11:13 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-18 04:45 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-18 18:50 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-21 22:48 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-15 22:02 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-17 11:01 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-17 15:28 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-18 18:42 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2019-01-06 18:45 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2019-01-01 16:54 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2019-01-06 17:17 +0100
                Re: the famous formula "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2019-01-06 08:35 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2019-01-07 14:56 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2019-01-06 18:47 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-15 12:55 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-13 23:14 +0100
                [OT] Work (was: the famous formula) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-11 21:56 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-08 20:14 +0100
            Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:22 +0100
        Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-07 17:57 +0100
          Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 14:03 +0100
            Re: the famous formula Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-08 05:29 -0800
              Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 18:43 +0100
                [OT] Work (was: the famous formula) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-08 21:53 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:08 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-09 19:31 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 18:58 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-10 18:52 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-10 22:28 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-11 16:36 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-11 20:24 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-08 14:02 -0800
            Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-08 16:56 +0100
              Re: the famous formula Ejí Utorka <edew@aewedoc.cl> - 2018-12-08 16:05 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 18:35 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Ejí Utorka <edew@aewedoc.cl> - 2018-12-08 17:58 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-08 19:34 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Ejí Utorka <edew@aewedoc.cl> - 2018-12-08 18:54 +0000
          Re: the famous formula Ejí Utorka <edew@aewedoc.cl> - 2018-12-08 16:09 +0000
  Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-06 22:16 +0100
    Re: the famous formula Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2019-01-01 18:15 -0800
      Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2019-01-02 22:10 +0100
  Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-07 16:07 +0000
    Re: the famous formula Steve BH <sbharris@gmail.com> - 2019-01-01 17:22 -0800
  Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-07 22:47 +0100
  Re: the famous formula "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 15:06 -0800
    Re: the famous formula benj <benj.fake@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 13:44 -0500

csiph-web