Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #479322

Re: the famous formula

From	Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de>
Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Subject	Re: the famous formula
Date	2018-12-08 14:18 +0100
Message-ID	<g71uloFubu2U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<79b9b14b-3010-4875-9394-6d0269270fbe@googlegroups.com> <g6tcrdFugh7U1@mid.individual.net> <38b03482-19b8-f0e3-1c69-5d00ece928fb@PointedEars.de> <g6v2h6Fb0lhU1@mid.individual.net> <22bed404-b9e0-9995-d1bf-aa333a5dd7df@PointedEars.de>

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Am 07.12.2018 um 16:15 schrieb Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
> Thomas Heger wrote:
>> Am 06.12.2018 um 22:47 schrieb Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn:
>>>        Then energy/work is
>>>
>>>          E = W = F s = m a s = m v/t s = m s/t² s = m s²/t² = m (s/t)² = m v².
>>>
>>>            The far right-hand side should ring a bell if you think of kinetic
>>>            energy, the energy of motion: T = E_kin = 1/2 m v² (Newtonian).
>>>
>>>        c is the *speed* of light, so E₍₀₎ = m c² makes sense dimensionally.]
>>
>> Energy and work are not the same thing.
> 
> Dimensionally they are exactly the same because of how energy is defined
> (AISB in the part that you did not quote).
> 
>> Energy is a scalar unit,
> 
> Energy is a _quantity_, not a unit.

Well, yes. English is a foreign language for me and occasionally I make 
mistakes.

> 
>> hence cannot become negative
> 
> But it can.

There is a difference between mathematics and the real world.

If we want to regard physics as science, we must always prefer the 'real 
world perspective' (over the mathematical).

So a quantity in nature is called 'energy' and this cannot become 
negative (by definition of the term 'energy').

> 
>> and has no direction.
> 
> A matter of interpretation.  There are processes that transport energy in a
> particular direction.

The '*direction of transport' seems to correspond to 'arrow of time'.

So a positive direction of time should always be regarded as positive, 
hence the path determines the direction, where signs are positive.

Since you cannot create (or transport) something, that absorbs energy 
without a trace, you must regard the path of
something as positive and its energetic features also as positive.
> 
>> Work is a vectorial unit
> 
> Nonsense.
> 
>> and has a direction and can eventually become negative
> 
> No, that the value of work can become negative is indicative instead of work
> performed *on* a system as compared to work performed *by* a system.
> 
> This is only a *convention*.
> 
> For example, if you push a piston to reduce the volume of the gas in a
> cylinder, then you perform work *on* that system, and the convention is
> that then this work has a positive sign.
> 
> If instead the piston is pushed outwards, increasing the volume of the gas
> in a cylinder, then work is performed *by* the system on the environment,
> and it follows that this work must have a negative sign.

You address the problem of pulling a piston out and creating a lower 
pressure.

But this is - of course - also positive work.

If the piston pushes outwards against some kind of resistance, then we 
have also positive work, done by that piston.

Work is therefor positive, if seen from one side and negative, if seen 
from the other.

This is why work should be a vector, while energy is not.

..

TH

Thread

the famous formula RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-06 10:49 -0800
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  Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-06 20:50 +0100
    Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-06 22:47 +0100
      Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-07 12:06 +0100
        Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-07 16:15 +0100
          Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 14:18 +0100
            Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-08 13:43 +0000
              Re: the famous formula "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-12-08 06:01 -0800
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 18:18 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-08 19:26 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:35 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-09 20:24 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-10 18:48 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Rich Carpenter <lcug@kigcohc.pa> - 2018-12-10 19:37 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-10 22:27 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-10 22:35 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-12 16:45 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-13 17:21 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:03 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-09 20:37 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-09 22:20 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-10 18:40 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-10 21:59 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-10 21:41 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-11 16:31 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-11 18:24 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-12 16:32 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-12 16:27 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-14 15:13 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-14 14:28 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-15 13:35 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-15 13:52 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-15 19:50 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-15 20:33 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-15 22:02 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-12-15 12:55 +0000
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-13 23:14 +0100
                [OT] Work (was: the famous formula) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-11 21:56 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-08 20:14 +0100
            Re: the famous formula Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:22 +0100
        Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-07 17:57 +0100
          Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 14:03 +0100
            Re: the famous formula Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-08 05:29 -0800
              Re: the famous formula Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-08 18:43 +0100
                [OT] Work (was: the famous formula) Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-08 21:53 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-09 19:08 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-09 19:31 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-09 18:58 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-10 18:52 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-10 22:28 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas Heger <ttt_heg@web.de> - 2018-12-11 16:36 +0100
                Re: [OT] Work Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-12-11 20:24 +0100
                Re: the famous formula Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-12-08 14:02 -0800
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                Re: the famous formula Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com.INVALID> - 2018-12-08 19:34 +0100
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